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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:10 pm 
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
This is proving a real challenge, and should we find a solution maybe helpful to others that follow.

It's a bit long winded but here we go….

I purchased my 1971 - 700 from Victoria from David Wade ( No issues there). David had it registered under a club membership. I would really prefer a full registration so it is my choice when to drive.

This has been the process to date:
1. I have a Road Worthy Certificate and the Compulsory Third Party Insurance.

2. I presented the vehicle at the local Department, and particularly because it had no Australian Compliance Plate referred me to the "policy division" of the Transport Regulation Branch | Department of Transport and Main Roads. That is where the real fun starts.

3. Their first reply was:
Quote:
Thank you for your enquiry to the Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR) about registering a 1971 Steyr Puch (Halfinger) vehicle in Queensland.
It is noted that this vehicle was able to be registered in Victoria with a club permit. However, TMR's Vehicle Standards section has advised that as the vehicle was only designed and supplied to Australia as military vehicles, as such, would only be eligible in Queensland for conditional registration under the 'Utility off road vehicle' category.
Attached is the information sheet for a conditionally registered 'Utility off road vehicle' for your information .


4. My very lengthy reply advised that their information was incorrect. I advised them the serial numbers of the 46 Only Haflingers that were owned by the Australian Army, and note that these were all manufactured in 1966 with an engine numbers series 5358xxx, Chassis 5357xxx. The vehicle in question is a 1971 Engine No 5363606 and chassis 5361472.

I also gave links to web sites, public advertisements for haflingers, lists of retail distributers, private companies and government departments that owned haflingers. In all very conclusive evidence that there were haflingers produced and sold to the public.

5. Their reply was:
Quote:
Can you please provide comments on the following:
Why do you want the vehicle registered?
Where do you want to use the vehicle?
What do you need to use it for?


6. That was a lengthy reply. But very briefly not only do I wish to use it as a promotional vehicle for my business but when it's a nice day and the mood is right, just as those do, who own an old Ford Mustang, Corvette, Harley, E type Jaguar, Mercedes SL500, etc
for the pleasure of driving something unique………..

7. Their reply 2 days ago:
Quote:
The Department of Transport and Main Roads' (TMR) Registration Policy unit has liaised extensively with the Vehicle Standards section to assist in determining if this vehicle would be eligible for standard registration.

The Vehicle Standards section has advised that a 1971 Steyr Puch Haflinger model should have originally been fitted with an identification plate showing that the vehicle was manufactured in accordance with the applicable 2nd Edition Australian Design Rules. However, as an identification plate is not fitted (or missing) it is impossible to determine if the vehicle was constructed in accordance with the Australian Design Rules for normal on-road use or for off-road/military use only. As such, Vehicle Standards is unable to comment on the vehicle's safety/compliance to the Vehicle Standards Regulation for standard registration of the vehicle.

A vehicle with no identification/compliance plate is generally considered acceptable for standard registration provided previous registration records can be obtained (interstate or local). While this vehicle does have a record of VicRoads Club registration, this scheme is not regulated as closely as the normal standard registration scheme and therefore TMR would have some concerns with accepting this as evidence of original compliance.

Registration Policy Unit has contacted VicRoads about the club permit registration of this vehicle. VicRoads advised that, as it is a non-ADR compliant vehicle, it would be eligible for club permit registration. Non-ADR compliant vehicles, such as this, are assessed on a case by case basis if applying for standard registration.

Although, you have provided evidence that there were similar vehicles previously registered in Australia (current or expired), it may be the case that these vehicles complied with Australian Design Rules applicable to the vehicle and fitted with a compliance plate, therefore eligible for standard registration.

In view of the above, this vehicle would only be eligible for conditional registration as previously advised.


8. They have never asked for a photograph of the ID plate, - which is fitted
MFG Plate.jpg
[imgMFG Plate.jpg[/img]

9. I have supplies 4 registration number of haflingers that I have found listed on the web
Qld: 685-EQH
NSW: LFZ-476
VIC: LCT-131
Cnba: YJK-06B
But typically all states operate independently so this may well be a Queensland battle !!

10. I will in my next reply send the photograph of the ID plate however it says nothing about Australian manufacture, only the Steyr-Daimler-Puch GRAZ works

11. For your information from what I have ascertained Australian Compliance plates only came into force in August 1972
This is a 1971 vehicle

11. Before I reply can anyone help with the following information or suggestions
# The previous history of this particular vehicle
# Other ID plates from 1971
# Is there an Australian factory record of production engine numbers etc?
or any information/advice

Cheers and thanks
kym

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:12 am 
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Herewith Mfg Plate photograph that did not work before.


Attachments:
File comment: MFG Plate
Resized ID PLATE.jpg
Resized ID PLATE.jpg [ 186.96 KiB | Viewed 2677 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:46 am 
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Have you advised them that the vehicles (yours included) were actually built in Melbourne, earlier Aussie built vehicles did not have compliance plates (mine does not), were road legal in Aust and sold to many Government departments. Indeed they were used in Canberra as street sweeping vehicles in the late 60s/early 70s.

Also while your vehicle had a Club Permit (in the ACT Historic Registration is not a permit but a full rego classification) when you bought it, it would have been on full registration previous to this - can you not find what this registration was - I assume the previous owner would have these details.

Also remember these were/are classed as commercial vehicles so did not have to meet car standards.

Here are some more pics that may help - not Qld registered vehicles.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The Melbourne Factory where they were built in the early 70s
Image

Maybe yours being built in Melbourne
Image

Melbourne Built Vehicle Price List
Image

Image

Compliance Plate when they came in after 1972
Image

These are pics taken by various people, some on this forum and collected form the internet.

Garry

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Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:00 am 
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Also I suspect your plate is not the original - it is too good condition - also missing its build year - second line.

Here is mine (not mine is a 73 and still does not have a compliance plate. Note no mention of Aust Build.
Image

The build sheet (Wagenstammkarte) is what you need - a emailed scanned copy available from Dale or John at Haflinger Technik for about $40. parts@haflingertechnik.com

Notice it does show the vehicle was built in Melbourne at Haflinger Sales and Service

Image

Garry

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Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
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Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:05 am 
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Thanks Gary,
I will get onto Dale or John at Haflinger Technik today.
The rest of your valuable input I will add to my submission reply that I am currently formulating.
Appreciate your time to help
Kym

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:48 am 
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Location: Cairns , Australia
Hi ,
You could try contacting Tony Hrelja in Melbourne, He worked on the Australian production line, he may have some info that may help.

Dave.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:14 am 
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Does the vehicle get looked at by a person at a testing type facility for this sort of thing or is it all paperwork based?

Surely they have some one who can do a more thorough "road worthy" test and so give retrospective compliance?

John

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:35 am 
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heinkeljb wrote:
Does the vehicle get looked at by a person at a testing type facility for this sort of thing or is it all paperwork based?

Surely they have some one who can do a more thorough "road worthy" test and so give retrospective compliance?

John


The person who does the roadworthy basically does what an MOT inspector does but it is the bureaucrats who have to make the decisions where the vehicle may be outside the basic guidelines - eg may be roadworthy by normal standards but does not have the plates or documents that confirm the vehicle complies with design rules etc.

If a vehicle cannot be proved that it complies it can be taken to an approved engineer who can make varies tests and examinations and sign off the vehicle however this can be very expensive and may cost more than the vehicle is worth - not Kym's though.

The simplest and maybe easiest thing Kym can do is get the details of previous registration and use this of compliance. I ha dthis issue when trying to register my 101 but the authorities were able to pull interstate registration details of their system. I had the previous Tasmanian registration documents for my Haflinger so had no issues.

I am surprised the Queensland authorities have not searched the interstate database with Kym's Haffies details and pulled up its previous registration details in Victoria.

Garry

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Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:13 pm 
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Hi OzzieHaffy,

you can ask the document (Wagenstammkarte) directly to S-TEC in Graz, they speak English.

This address: http://www.s-tec.at/de/home/

Good Luck! 8-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:00 am 
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi All, and thanks for your enthusiastic replies.

I am acting on all the ideas.

* E-mailed Haflinger Technik and waiting reply
* David Wade has provided the details of previous owners will contact them next week, although that previous transaction was 8 years ago.
* Contact Tony Hrelja in Melbourne
* Also will contact S-TEC in Graz
* Contact Vic Main Roads and other interstate authorities and try to get details of the vehicle's previous registration.

Personally, I believe the bureaucrats here do not want it on the road, and as such are not interested in helping. Thus there is no desire the research the Vic Roads Records. etc

I just will not them white wash me.
My reply will be an oversupply of information hopefully so that cannot refuse.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:30 am 
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Hello Kym

I feel your pain, as it took me a good 6 months to get it through the NSW system. For a while it looked like i would never achieve NSW registration. I found having the Wagenstammkarte particularly helpful, as production date preceded end the September 1972 ADR implementation date- invalidating the original RTA reason for refusing registration. In the absence of original rego papers, it is impossible to prove manufacturing date otherwise. And even if you did have the rego papers, they often will give the date of sale rather than manufacturing date, as was the case with my Tasmanian bug-eye.

I think your approach is your best bet, overwhelm them with information. The Australian Haflinget Club site will get up when I return from holidays, and perhaps all the vehicles in the Register may help sway it for you.

Good luck

Rick

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several Puch scooters[/size]


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:36 am 
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Kym

Forgot to mention, it's common for the ID plates of Australian delivered Haflingers not to have a date stamped- and was left blank. Note the plate that Garry has posted- the date is in a different font and size to the factory stamping. The Wagenstammkarte will be very useful.

Cheers

Rick

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several Puch scooters[/size]


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:26 am 
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Hi All,
And thanks for the information supplied.
Below my letter to the Policy Dept of the Qld Main Roads dept. I think I have covered everything and more they have asked for.
I and the 3 other vehicles currently under re-build in Queensland anxiously await their reply
Fingers crossed
X

[quote]I find it difficult to understand why it is so challenging to register this vehicle.


Objection No1:

The Vehicle Standards section has advised that a 1971 Steyr Puch Haflinger model should have originally been fitted with an identification plate showing that the vehicle was manufactured in accordance with the applicable 2nd Edition Australian Design Rules. However, as an identification plate is not fitted (or missing) it is impossible to determine if the vehicle was constructed in accordance with the Australian Design Rules for normal on-road use or for off-road/military use only. As such, Vehicle Standards is unable to comment on the vehicle's safety/compliance to the Vehicle Standards Regulation for standard registration of the vehicle.

The vehicle is fitted with a identification plate, as detailed previously.
Copy of the manufacturers plate/ identification plate attached above.

I have also sourced from the original European manufacturers of the vehicle, The Build Certificate. Attached

This certificate clearly shows the vehicle was manufactured (re-assembled) in Australia by Anti-Friction on 17th June 1970.
The full name of the company is Anti Friction Bearings (Australasia) Pty Ltd in Melbourne Victoria.

Attached is also a copy of their retail price list dated 1970

Notes on the manufacture of Haflingers by Anti-Friction Bearings (Australasia) Pty Ltd from web based information
The very first Haflinger was brought to Australia in 1959 by a company called Moffat Virtue in Sydney. Steyr-Puch had the intention to sell vehicles to the Australian Army, but it seems more interest was attracted in the civilian sector. For this reason, a company called "Anti-Friction Bearings Ltd." (A.F.B.) in Melbourne decided to become Australia's agent for the Haflinger in 1962.

In 1966, the sales level was high enough to justify an assembly of CKD kits in Australia. CKD stands for "completely knocked down". The vehicles were built at the Steyr-Puch factory at Graz in Austria. After production, they were again partially disassembled and packed into wooden crates, which were then sent to Australia for local assembly. In this way, less import duty had to be paid - but a local assembly line had to be set up. This was done by Anti-Friction Bearings at Clayton, Victoria, and up to 30 Haflingers could be assembled there per month.

Around 800 Haflingers were assembled and sold in Australia.

After 1972 Haflingers in Australia had to be fitted with an extra Australian Design Rules (ADR) compliance plate next to the Steyr-Puch type plate.

Information compiled from the following sites:
http://tdc.haflinger-4wd.com/countries/australia.php
http://members.westnet.com.au/profpinz/ ... fyinfo.htm
http://www.justauto.com.au/just4x4s/kno ... 78ff06fa4a


As noted above the vehicle was built in June 1970 and as such the fitment of Compliance plate was not at that time a requirement and thus was not fitted.

Below an extract from the Queensland Vehicle Standard Code of Practice Section 3 2004:

For the purposes of registration, all motor vehicles originally manufactured to comply with the Australian Design Rules (ADR’s) on or after 1 January 1972 and motorcycles constructed after 1 July 1975 would have been fitted with a compliance plate.

Below an extract from the NSW Standards Code:
The Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 2007 requires a motor vehicle (except a tractor or implement) first registered on or after 1st August 1972 to be fitted with a compliance plate

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/ ... v_2007.pdf

Below an extract from the Tasmanian Standards Code:

For the purposes of registration, all motor vehicles originally manufactured to comply with the Australian Design Rules (ADR’s) on or after 1 August 1972 and motorcycles constructed after 1 July 1975 would have been fitted with a compliance Plate.
http://www.transport.tas.gov.au/__data/ ... Manual.pdf

Although I cannot find the extract, similar legislation for Compliance plate fitment to Victorian manufactured vehicles was instigated in 1972 only.

As the vehicle was built prior to the implementation of the compliance plate fitment on 1 January 1972, the 1970 Haflinger in question is exempt and was never fitted with a compliance plate.

This Haflinger is fitted with a manufacturers plate, which in 1970 was the only requirement. Anti-Friction bearings was a recognised volume manufacturer of vehicles in Clayton Victoria and their production would have had to comply with all ADR's at the time of manufacture.


Objection No2:
A vehicle with no identification/compliance plate is generally considered acceptable for standard registration provided previous registration records can be obtained (interstate or local). While this vehicle does have a record of VicRoads Club registration, this scheme is not regulated as closely as the normal standard registration scheme and therefore TMR would have some concerns with accepting this as evidence of original compliance.

The vehicle does have an Identification Plate but no Compliance Plate as discussed above.

Following contact with Nathan from the Customer Resolution Team, VicRoads Contact Centre, he has been most helpful in advising that this very vehicle is registered in the Australian National Data Base of vehicle registrations.

Although for privacy reasons he cannot divulge the original and subsequent registration numbers he has informed me, and more recently yourself that this vehicle WAS REGISTERED IN VICTORIA in 1971. Furthermore this information has and is available to you to verify the vehicles registration history.

I am currently awaiting more detailed information from him in relation to the date of first registration and the dates of any subsequent changes of registration of this vehicle in Victoria or any other state.
Again this information is available to you directly by checking the Australian National Date Base of vehicle registrations.


Objection 3:
Although, you have provided evidence that there were similar vehicles previously registered in Australia (current or expired), it may be the case that these vehicles complied with Australian Design Rules applicable to the vehicle and fitted with a compliance plate, therefore eligible for standard registration.

To date I have found the following Haflinger vehicles registered in Australia. A quick check on the National Data Base will establish that many of them were built prior to the implementation of compliance plates yet currently had or do have held full registration.

Victoria Registration: PUCK
Victoria Registration: TUK 262
Victoria Registration: RZZ 652
Victoria Registration: LCT 131
Tasmania Registration: BH 3187
Canberra Registration: YJK 068
NSW Registration: LFZ 476
Queensland Registration: POV 876
Queensland Registration: OHW 739
Queensland Registration: 685 EQH

I would pose the question "Why would one vehicle out of a production of over 800 not comply with the ADR's at time?"

The fact that this vehicle was registered in Victoria in 1971 would surly confirm that it did comply…


I have previously supplied to you the Road safety Certificate No LV-l 568836 4
And also the Compulsory CTP Insurance Certificate:E0358460W

I have responded appropriately, honestly and correctly to all your questions since this correspondence started and as such would appreciate a favourable reply allowing for full registration.
/quote]

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:59 am 
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Good luck - however when these public servants put their mind to it they can be quite stubborn. This is highlighted by the fact they have access to the database and have all the information at their finger tips (and I am sure checked) and have answers to all their own questions but have stubbornly refused to grant you registration.

Also on the issue of compliance plates - as mentioned no all vehicles being made were allocated compliance plates at the time. Mine was made in 1973 and does not have a compliance plate and has been registered in Tas, WA and the ACT apparently without issue.

I hope it all works and common sense prevails.

Cheers

Garry

Oh - PS my Landrover 101FC does not have a compliance plate - 1977 model and was Aust Army - when it came out of service it was registered in Qld and even has the little blue Qld mod plates on it for the LPG so clearly your Qld authorities are overly difficult.

Edit Edit - just spotted this on ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Advert-Born- ... 1c3bdbb00a

If you zoom in on the pics of the Haflinger Advert it lists the distributors in each state including QLD.

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Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Is there a local office where you can go and talk to the bureaucrats face to face? That with a folder full of supporting documents would probably work.

Make an appointment to see who ever it is you have been corresponding with, so you can look them in the eye whilst they tell you it can't be registered!

John

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:21 pm 
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Hello Kym

Ill PM you now with a list of 27 Australian rego plates (past and present) that may help establish a history. These have come from photos I have saved over the years as well a several that I know are presently registered.

I can provide photos of each for your dossier, just let me know.

Good luck

Rick

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several Puch scooters[/size]


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:42 am 
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A big thanks to all.
WE WON
!http://www.thehaflinger.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=11&t=2932#

Quote:
I refer to our phone conversation today and your request to register a 1971 Steyr Puch Haflinger vehicle in Queensland.

Thank you for providing the updated information you obtained from Vicroads regarding the previous registration of the vehicle in that state which clarifies that the vehicle was fully registered and not just issued with a club permit as you had originally advised.

In view of this new information, further consideration has been given to your application and I am pleased to advise that approval is granted for this vehicle to be registered with standard registration in Queensland.

With regard to safety certificates, a safety certificate is current up to two months or 2000 kms limit from the date of issue. As the safety certificate you provided was issued on 11 December 2013, it can be used to register this vehicle, provided the vehicle is registered prior to 10/02/2014.

Attached is a registration application form for your convenience:
Quote:


It has been a long road and hopefully has paved the way for other Haflingers registrations in Queensland

Cheers
kym

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:03 am 
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Well done on your rego quest.when I eventually decide to get mine registered I will use all the info everyone has provided

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:33 am 
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Kym,

That's really good news and will help us all here in Qld when we get around to getting ours registered.

Doug


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:38 am 
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The reality is of course that none of the arguments they raised was valid - if the vehicle had never been previously registered it should still have not made any difference.

Well done and can you put up some pics of the vehicle - I have only seen the ad pics prior to your purchase.

Cheers

Garry

_________________
Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)


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