An Interesting Haffie Day

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AustHaflinger
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An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

I had intended to work on my Landrover today as it needs some new tie rods however it was -2 this morning so a bit cool to be spanner turning so on a whim I decided to take the Haffie for an offroad drive.

10km in a straight line from my house there is a nice little mountain that is 4700 ft high and by the road is a nice 40km drive.

Mt Coree from my verandah.
Image

So I took the doors off, fuelled up, got my beanie and gloves packed some dunny paper for emergencies and took off. I have to say the Haffie does like a nice relaxing afternoon drive on good secondary roads.

While only 15km from the CBD of the Capital, the area is fairly remote.
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Here I have turned off the sealed roads and am now on good dirt roads about to climb the mountain where the road turns into a rough tracks.
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A better part of the track up. Though it does not look it, the slope is about 30 degrees and requires 2nd gear.
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At the top looking east back towards Canberra. The engine had trouble starting to go back down - maybe the change in altitude from home - 1460m vs 500m.
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Tiger country to the west - ready to be explored in the Haffie in the future.
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On the way back down I decided to visit a mud hole (currently) dry that has brought me to grief a few times in the Landie 101 - it is under some power lines and I decided to climb up the other side.
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It is quite steep, rough, rutted and a few rocks
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Excuse the video - was trying to drive and hold the camera - need a dash cam.
I started off in second but soon ran out of puff. I have found the engine overfuels at low revs high load, an at steep angles and is difficult to start. You can see half way through this happened and I had to back down to a flat bit to get the engine started. Then off in first (krawler) and rear diff lock - even then the rocks were causing issues and I had to also bring in the front diff lock. (click on the pic below to view the vid - just driving up the hill)
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I got to the top and here is me to put a face to a name.
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It was now getting late so then headed home. On the way down the mountain a knocking started from the front which I thought was good as it might be the growling issue I had in the front end and might help diagnose the issue. Got worse as I went down so I stopped at the bottom and jacked up the front left wheel - nothing was loose and all seemed ok so I continued on. About 4km later on the sealed road going around a curve at 40kph.
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The knocking was not my front end grumble but the wheel nuts coming loose. The wheel landed not 5 feet away from where the Haffie stopped. It slid 60m on the brake drum and ground down the cooling fins but the drum itself was OK - will need a new one though.
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I did find a wheel nut at the start of the slide - this is the start of the slid
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I took one wheel nut off each other wheel and reattached the front wheel and took of home arriving safe and well.

I was surprised the wheel came loose - all wheels went on at the same time using the same method and tools - all other wheel nuts on the other wheels were tight - any way something to watch in the future.

Cheers

Garry
Last edited by AustHaflinger on Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Whoa... glad to hear that you finally arrived home safely!
Is the brake mounting plate (also housing for the hub gears) damaged as well? I would imagine yes, since the diameter is even larger than the drum's one.


Kind regards,
Constantin
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heinkeljb
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

Gary,

Glad you are OK. I have seen some rather bad accidents that result from losing a wheel like that. I suppose it's a good thing the Hafi does not go that fast!

Something to watch out for, knocking noises from the front seem to always point to loose wheel nuts. I have had issues with Ford Mondeo's and Focus's where the wheels would no come off when you have tried to change the wheel - you end up loosening the wheel nuts and going for a drive to make them do what you did to your Hafi.

How far would you have to have walked to get home to pick up the trailer? Probably quicker than waiting for a recovery company.

John
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HaffyHunter
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by HaffyHunter »

Hi Garry,

It looks like you had a great day out and about (apart from the wheel incident :cry: ). Great to see you're getting a chance to shake out the dozens of pesky gremlins that tend to find their way into rebuild projects.

Here's a tip that I use regarding Haffy wheel nuts as I've had mine loosen (only slightly)...apply a small drop of low strength Loctite or your wife's nail polish to the stud threads before installing the nuts. It's enough to keep them from loosening but not so strong as to make removal difficult.

Cheers,
Steve
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AustHaflinger
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

pathfinder700ap wrote:Whoa... glad to hear that you finally arrived home safely!
Is the brake mounting plate (also housing for the hub gears) damaged as well? I would imagine yes, since the diameter is even larger than the drum's one.


Kind regards,
Constantin
Hmmm - hadn't thought about that, so just went out and checked - yes worn down a bit, but just enough to let the water out of the drum after a creek crossing :D. Is not a major issue in the short term and like the drum will be replaced in due course.
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John - I would have hitched a lift - but there was a Landcruiser just parked down the road with two guys in their early 20s who came up to assist. Forget four blokes being able to lift a haffie - the two of them could barely lift the front left corner so I coukld put the jack under it. I could have got a lift with them but they had their own issues. Their Landcruiser could only turn left and only about 5 degrees right and they had stopped to work out a strategy to get around the next right hand bend. That had been stopping and reversing turning left to point the Toyota in the right direction and then driving until they had to do the process again.

But I would have just rang my housemate to bring my Rangie over with the trailer. I had to do this when I got the Rangie bogged nearby a couple years ago - he had to come and get me and then help with the recovery.
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Steve - yes was thinking about low strength locktite. Yes the shakedown runs are good - they highlight a issue in the clutch - noise when clutch pedal out and none when depressed - on a normal car would indicate a failing flywheel spigot bush but not sure in the Haffie. Also the steering arm in front of the front diff bangs on the protection plate when offroad but not onroad so either something has worked loose or there is a alignment issue. However, overall the car runs well.

Cheers

Garry
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HaffyHunter
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by HaffyHunter »

Hi Garry,

Your clutch noise is likely the clutch release bearing due to the clutch cable being a little too tight. Try backing the cable adjustment off by a few turns and see if the noise goes away. There needs to be about 1/4" of free travel in the clutch lever to prevent the bearing from continuously contacting the pressure plate ring.

Cheers,
Steve
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heinkeljb
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

Looks like I shall have to get some low strength loctite as well! Don't want that happening to mine. :geek:

Don't see how the steering arm could be banging the diff guard plate unless it has fallen off - more likely, the diff guard plate is loose. Suspension limit straps should stop the axles from going too low when the wheel is in the air so it shouldn't be that knocking on anything.

Is it possible that the rubber spring assist cones are being hit and the body to chassis bolts are a bit loose?

John
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AustHaflinger
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks Steve - the clutch does take up near the top of the pedal so I will try different adjustment settings to see what happens.

John - I have only just put the bash plate on and it is all tight (but then so was the wheel just before it fell off :shock: ). When I put it on I noted the steering arm was close with no visible gap but it did not bang so left it. So there is something else going on when on rough ground that I will have to have a look at - I got up this morning to find a large oil leak from one of the rear swing arm fulcrums - the rough ground has certainly highlighted a few issues but really all fairly minor and easily fixed. I think the fulcrum pins can come out to replace the o-rings without having to dismantle much problem - greasable bearings rather than having them lubricated by the diff would have been more logical.

Cheers

Garry
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by pathfinder700ap »

What comes to my mind is that you should check if the steel disc is in place between drum and rim, because if it is missing, it can lead to deformations and crackings on the drum (I have experienced this) and possibly to loose wheel nuts.

However in one of your pictures, I think I can see the steel disc, so it should be fine.


Kind regards,
Constantin
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AustHaflinger
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

It was on the road next to one wheel nut so I have it back on. Have been meaning to ask - what is its actual purpose? (other than stopping cracking and deformations).

Thanks

Garry
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

Gary,

Which way is your steering arm from the steering box shaft? I ask because your statement seems to indicate that it is pointing down. Mine points up.

Also along those lines, it the steering idler arm on the top of the diff or underneath? Mine is on top. Just trying to think of things that might cause a knocking noise as you go over bumps. Were the knocking noises on the upwards movement or the downward movement of the suspension?

Sounds like you are going to be using that other flexible gaiter which you have in your spares box to cure the new leak.

John
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

Hi John - the arm from the steering box points up and the arm on the front of the front diff points down with virtually no clearance between the tie rod ends and the bash plate.

Image

Yes I do have one spare split boot in my spares but the boot at the rear is only weeping. The leak is coming form the O rings where the fulcum pins hold on the swing arm. I think these can be replaced without removing the swing arms completely.

The first two split boots I put on went on well and are not leaking/weeping as is the the old one I put back and used a CV clamp (you suggested a cable tie). On that one I also used sealant where the clamps go and I think that is the trick to stop them weeping. To do the one remaining rear split boot I ordered two from Haflinger Technik but they were out of stock and I had to wait a while. They must have got these new ones from a different supplier as the large clamp was a couple of mm too big and would not tighten down on the boot. I cut the clamp and cut a few mm out of it and soldered it back together - it seemed to work OK but it is now weeping, so when I do the fulcrum o rings I will take the boot off and use sealant an the sealing bits and all should be OK. I have advised Haflinger Technik of the issue and they are looking at it - they seem to be very good at taking on board issues that pop up.

For the moment I will just put a tray under to catch the oil and check to oil once a week.

Garry
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

Well it was just a thought!

I wonder if the clearance between the steering tie rods and the bash plate are big enough for when you are off-road? The end of the drive shaft arm goes down as far as the limit strap will let it, but if the bash plate has been "Bashed" it might be within that distance.

Check the outside edges of the bash plate just under the steering tie rod arm for signs of contact - seems the most likely place for the knock to be coming from.

Certainly, any knocking noise you can hear in the cab whilst driving has got to be something quite big being lose or in the wrong place.

John
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

DOH!! I am obviously barking at the wrong tree!

Loose wheel nut are obviously the knocking noise you heard... I wonder if the knocking has caused any damage to the hubs?

Like you I am puzzled by the metal shim - it obviously is there to spread the load, but what load? It would not prevent you from pulling the bolts through the hub if you did them up so tight. The only thing it can do is prevent the wheel rim bolt holes from actually contacting the aluminium of the hubs. Do the bolt holes on the rims stand proud of the rest of the rim?

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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

heinkeljb wrote:Loose wheel nut are obviously the knocking noise you heard... I wonder if the knocking has caused any damage to the hubs?

John
Maybe but I don't think so - but then who knows. When I get my new wheel nuts next week I will see if the issue persists.

With the exception of the round bottom of the brake backing plate now being a bit flat and the wheel holes having some thread marks on the inside of them the hubs and threads are all OK.

What was interesting is when the knocking was getting a little more regular I stopped and jacked up that wheel and shook it side to side and top to bottom (like they do for MOT) and this did highlight the rough roads had loosened the king pins further as they were obviously loose - but in all this shaking the wheel did not move so the wheel was still tight to touch but loose enough to move on the road.

Cheers

Garry
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

It is quite possible for things to feel tight to the hand but you have to remember that when on the vehicle you have 650kgs plus centrifugal forces plus leverage which can result in vastly more OMPH being applied.

You might find it worth while trying to get the wheel balanced whilst it is on the hub. You could take the hub off with the wheel and get a friendly tyre place to put it on their machine.

John
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

heinkeljb wrote:It is quite possible for things to feel tight to the hand but you have to remember that when on the vehicle you have 650kgs plus centrifugal forces plus leverage which can result in vastly more OMPH being applied.
That was clearly what happened - just a bit annoyed I did not check the wheel nuts as that is an obvious thing to check. I have put on normal M10 1.5 nuts on to replace the missing nuts as a precaution - one wheel has 4 wheel nuts and the other three have three wheel nuts and one normal nut - will be Ok until I get a complete set of new nuts next week. I also need to get the caliper out as I have a suspicion that the 14" Fiat wheels that are on it are not sitting on the hub and are being held in place by the wheel nuts :?. If there is a gap I will make up a hub fitting on my neighbours lathe that will go over the hub ring and inside the wheel hub.

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pureredcordial
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by pureredcordial »

Hi Gary,

Quick question. I also have a set of fiat rims and although they fit the hub snuggly, it looks my wheels are for 12mm studs. So the standard 10mm haf nuts look like they screw into the wheel holes too far. Hard to explain but I think a 12mm wheel nut has a bigger hex head than the 10mm ones. I have not been able to find a larger nut but still M10 thread so far. Apparently, a 98 or so Patrol uses M12 on the hubs but M10 on the rear door spare...so perhaps need to look at nissan spare parts (or a machining shop).

Thanks
Matt
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by heinkeljb »

Welcome Matt,

Nice to have a new person commenting - but it would also be nice if you put a little more detail into your profile, like your location?

You have hit upon an issue that happens when you try using other rims instead of the originals. The answer is two fold:

Either:

Replace the rims with older Fiat rims which use 10mm (4x98 PDC) studs (holes).

Or:

You can do one of two things - change the studs on your Haflinger hubs for 12mm ones, or have (buy) shouldered nuts which have a sleeve which goes down the 10mm stud and packs out the space to fit the 12mm hole. These will probably have to be custom made as I don't know of any manufacturer who sells such things generally.

There is a post describing one persons method of replacing the 10mm studs with 12mm studs on the real4x4 forum (hope I am not contravening any rules putting this up!).

John
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Re: An Interesting Haffie Day

Post by AustHaflinger »

pureredcordial wrote:Hi Gary,

Quick question. I also have a set of fiat rims and although they fit the hub snuggly, it looks my wheels are for 12mm studs. So the standard 10mm haf nuts look like they screw into the wheel holes too far. Hard to explain but I think a 12mm wheel nut has a bigger hex head than the 10mm ones. I have not been able to find a larger nut but still M10 thread so far. Apparently, a 98 or so Patrol uses M12 on the hubs but M10 on the rear door spare...so perhaps need to look at nissan spare parts (or a machining shop).

Thanks
Matt
I do not know - I have 14" Fiat rims on the vehicle and also have some 13" Alfa rims and they sit on my hubs OK - I bought new wheel nuts back in May and just googled the size I needed and got 20 from the US for about $1 each but postage was expensive.

As far as putting in new studs - again I do not know but I had an issue when I put braked hubs on my trailer and I got new 12mm studs from Lloyds caravansd for about $3.50 each and I think Resort Trailers over in Queanbeyan would be a little cheaper. I am sure these studs could be made to fit but I would look at other options before modifying your hubs. Oh am looking for a spare 12" rim if you have one.

Garry
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