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 Post subject: Tie Rod ends - joints
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:32 am 
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After I did a lot of offroad work a month ago I developed a knock in the steering when manoeuvring. This morning I investigated and found the steering tie rod end that goes onto the steering box arm was worn - the knock is caused when the actual part that has the ball moves in and out.

Normal position
Image

In the worn out extended position
Image

So not safe to drive on and needs replacing.

Does anyone know of a modern common replacement for the genuine Haflinger tie rod end that I might source locally rather than waiting for an item from ordered form Europe.

Thanks

Garry

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:46 am 
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Gary,

Sorry you photo doesn't show if the ball joint is on a screw thread or if it is crimped in to the end of the tie rod and that would mean I have to go out side to look at Lurch to find out.
I shall make an assumption that the ball joint is the same as the ones that connect to the wheels. If that is the case then the following would be replacements.

Attachment:
ball joint for Haf.jpg
ball joint for Haf.jpg [ 82.59 KiB | Viewed 987 times ]


I don't take any credit for this list, I will give credit to the correct person as soon as I remember their name! Too early in the morning on a Saturday!

John

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:31 am 
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Hey Garry,
I am currently replacing all of my ball joints on my Haffie. Have got a full set of early VW Beetle tie rod ends on order and they should be with me next week. I have ordered 2 right hand thread and 2 left hand thread ball joints for the tie rods which go from the centre idler arm to the wheels.
Then on the drag link rod, which goes from the pitman arm off the steering box to the centre idler arm, which is what you show in your photos, I have ordered 2 right hand thread ball joints, as on mine these ball joints don't screw in or out. and I have to replace the complete rod.
My intention is to turn up another rod on the lathe, drill and tap the ends in the correct right hand thread and screw in the 2 extra right hand thread ball joints on my order.
When I got my Haffie all of the steering ball joints, one of the swivel joints on the front joint and the steering box were all seized solid so the early stage of my steering overhaul was done with a large hammer and the oxy torch.
I have also got early VW shockers on order for mine, as well as wheel cylinder kits as these are suitable as well. 3 of my shockers are seized and all of my wheel cylinders were seized and I had to use a press to get the pistons out of them. I don't think maintenance was a big thing with the previous owner.
If I have been given a bum steer by the bloke at the local brake and steering place and these parts don't fit I will let you know.
Regards Rick.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:19 am 
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Here's the full list, latest iteration
As usual if anyone has any more info I can add please let me know.


Stuart

Attachment:
160603 HAFLINGER PARTS X REF95.xls [146.5 KiB]
Downloaded 48 times

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:42 am 
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Thanks for the information - other than taking the pics and noting the faulty tie rod end I have done nothing further.

So I take it that the tie rod I am after cannot be purchased by itself as tie rod end and the tie rod is all one piece. I have some Landrover Series 1 rods that I guess I could convert (would be strong enough) but I really don't to muck around so I guess I need to get onto someone like Haflinger Technik to get the correct tie rod and end.

I assume there is not a alternative replacement for the tie rod with built in end like there is for the LH and RH tie rod ends.

PS - just looked at the parts manual - the RHD Haflinger drag link is the combined unit but the LHD Haflinger drag link is made up of individual components - that is a centre tube with removable tie rods on either end. Dont get the logic.

Second PS - my Landrover 101 has a similar system but the drag link tie rod end is rebuildable - can the Haffie tie rods be rebuilt? I just priced the drag links and they are in the order of £100 pounds - ouch.

Cheers

Garry

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:06 am 
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mechanical horse wrote:
Hey Garry,
I am currently replacing all of my ball joints on my Haffie. Have got a full set of early VW Beetle tie rod ends on order and they should be with me next week. I have ordered 2 right hand thread and 2 left hand thread ball joints for the tie rods which go from the centre idler arm to the wheels.
Then on the drag link rod, which goes from the pitman arm off the steering box to the centre idler arm, which is what you show in your photos, I have ordered 2 right hand thread ball joints, as on mine these ball joints don't screw in or out. and I have to replace the complete rod.
My intention is to turn up another rod on the lathe, drill and tap the ends in the correct right hand thread and screw in the 2 extra right hand thread ball joints on my order.
When I got my Haffie all of the steering ball joints, one of the swivel joints on the front joint and the steering box were all seized solid so the early stage of my steering overhaul was done with a large hammer and the oxy torch.
I have also got early VW shockers on order for mine, as well as wheel cylinder kits as these are suitable as well. 3 of my shockers are seized and all of my wheel cylinders were seized and I had to use a press to get the pistons out of them. I don't think maintenance was a big thing with the previous owner.
If I have been given a bum steer by the bloke at the local brake and steering place and these parts don't fit I will let you know.
Regards Rick.


Assuming shockers are shocks
Make sure they dampen both ways - I think most VW shocks are only 1 way

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:21 am 
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The ball joints are individual service parts.

Just remember to measure the distance they are set at in relation to pin to tube end before unscrewing them, makes setting up the tracking much easier.

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Stuart

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:41 am 
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Techmogogy wrote:

Assuming shockers are shocks
Make sure they dampen both ways - I think most VW shocks are only 1 way


Certainly when I was looking for replacement shocks there was no listing or a close match here in Aust for Haf shocks. I bought new Haflinger ones from Haflinger Technic and the price was quite reasonable and they work fine.

Garry

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:43 pm 
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Now that Stuart has provided the latest version of his alternative parts list, and reminded me who made the list in the first place! I can give him credit for the list in the second post in this thread as being his work.

The link rod should be easy enough to copy and put two threaded ends on, which would allow you to put threaded ball joints in and adjust to fine tune the length.

Gary, you could try making one, you can always buy the "correct" one if it doesn't work out.

John

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:58 am 
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Tie rod ends for a 74 or earlier Mercedes sedan are a direct fit for originals. I buy the whole tie rod with ends on Ebay for the cost of a single joint.
You just use the new ends on the original tie rod tube.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:39 am 
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I haven't pulled my car apart so I am not sure what I have steering drag wise.

So while waiting to do this - I have a question for the technical brain trust.

As discussed, the steering drag rod on the haffie has the steering box end ball joint integrated with the drag rod - unlike the steering rods which have threaded ball joints at either end - adjustable and held in place with a clamp. My 101 has the same basic system as the Haffie steering drag with the ball joint integrated with the steering but they are rebuildable so the entire unit does not have to be replaced.

So why does the steering drag link have at least one of its ball joints integrated and not individually replaceable. What is so special about its function that it is not built (at least in original design form) the same way as the other steering rods with removable ball joints at either end?

Locally I can get a short early VW steering rod with ball joints quite cheap (merc stuff is expensive here) so can shorten the rod to the required length but I am just concerned about whether the haffy steering drag link needs to be stronger than a steering rod.

Technical input from those who know :-)

Garry

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:37 am 
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The real reason is cost! The crimped ball joint end is cheaper (no thread and nut required). The tube is the same for both the pitman arm and the tie rods so really all you need is a piece of tube of a similar ilk, a couple of threaded bosses / nuts with correct thread and a couple of ball joints. The arm is straight so you don't even have to put a bend in it.
I think you could have one made for less than the price of having one shipped to you and it would be repairable!

John

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:16 pm 
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Hey Gary,
I am part way through rebuilding my steering and I sat and wondered the same question. The only reason I could think of is that the drag link from the steering box to the centre idler has to push and pull both sides of the steering assembly , whereas the tie rods have to push and pull only one side each of the steering assembly. So maybe they thought that a threaded ball joint into a tube is a weak spot. I just machined a bit of solid bar and drilled and tapped a hole in each end and screwed in a couple of ball joints. I smile to myself when I think of some poor Austrian soldier laying under his broken down Haffie in 2 feet of snow thinking in a very loud voice, "why did they build it like this?'
Regards Rick.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:41 am 
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Ok removed the rod today - as expected it is a one piece non adjustable unit with the tie rod ends crimped onto the centre rod and they cannot be removed. The ball joint on the steering box end was quite loose but the steering relay end was quite tight.

Attachment:
20160830_142340.jpg
20160830_142340.jpg [ 1.25 MiB | Viewed 910 times ]


I tried ringing Tony Hrelja in Melbourne to get one but there was no answer so I went to my online VW parts supplier. I took a punt and ordered this VW Short Track Rod.
Attachment:
J20824-0.jpg
J20824-0.jpg [ 12 KiB | Viewed 910 times ]


http://www.justkampers.com.au/air-coole ... 68-on.html

When I rang I confirmed the ball joints on the rod are 311-415-811c and 812c which are on the compatibility list provided above by Stuart and John (thanks for that ;) ). The only real unknown is the actual length of the VW item. The Haflinger one is 37cm long and the VW one comes in a box that is 38.5cm long so they will be close. If the VW is actually a little shorter no issue as the tie rod ends can be wound out to the correct length and if a little long then a small modification to the centre tube may be needed. If all goes wrong then I can still use the tie rod ends as they will fit elsewhere.

Hopefully this will all work out.

Thanks for the help and input - great as always.

Garry

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Landrover FC 101 (77)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:08 am 
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Ok - VW steering drag tie rod arrived. It can be adjusted for the correct length but the the RH thread tie rod end was angled not straight - still fits but not right. I rang the seller and was told that both ends were supposed to be straight and obviously a manufacturing fault. Rather than send it back which will take 2 weeks to replace I will buy a tie rod locally.

Putting that aside the VW replacement for Haflinger parts (the one piece drag rod) 700.2.43.046.0 or 700.2.43.100.0 is

VW OEM part 131-415-801/F Description - Complete track rod is the short rod from the steering box. Supplied complete with both ball joints and clamps. Fits all Beetles from 1968 to 1998, excluding 1302 and 1303 models.

Garry

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Landrover FC 101 (77)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:54 am 
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Got a straight RH tie rod end from the local Beetle Exchange (is exactly the same as the haflinger one) - quite cheap so now can all go back together when I get motivated. The angled one will still be useful as a spare.

Garry

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Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:51 pm 
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Hit it with a hammer to make it straight!!! :D :ugeek:

John

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:17 am 
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Hey Gary,
Am just finishing off the rebuilding of my brakes, steering and suspension. I got all of the bits that I needed from ABS, an Australian franchise that does brakes, steering, suspension, transmission and tyre repairs. They are all early VW bits but not with VW numbers as they source after market bits from a variety of suppliers. These numbers are in the ABS system and there is a note in there now that they are also suitable for Haffies.
Tie rod end ball joints. RH thread. TE-132R. LH thread. TE-132L.
Wheel cylinder cups. Front. 22 mm. P4420. Rear. 16 mm. P4422.
Wheel cylinder boots both ends. P4600.
Shockers, shocks and even shock absorbers. 82001.
The drag link I machined out of solid bar, drilled and tapped each end and fitted 2 RH thread ball joints. I only had a RH thread tap and no LH thread tap. The length of the link is within half a thread pitch of being exactly the length, which is within QLD tolerances.
Hope this helps someone get the bits they need.
Regards Rick.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:12 pm 
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So one of these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/TIE-ROD-Ball-Jo ... RB&vxp=mtr


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:00 am 
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Sort looks about right but you need to measure the length of your current one (mine was 37cm long) and ask the seller the length of the ones being sold - an inch or so difference is probably OK as long as it can be adjusted with the tie rod ends for the correct length. The one I recieved was not quite the right length but was able to be adjusted via the tie rods to the required length.

garry

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Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
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Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)


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