Wheel alignment and control arm shims

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Rabbit 16v
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Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by Rabbit 16v »

Hi everyone, ok I did a bad thing and didnt pay attention to the shims when I took out the shocks on my Haffie. I have some shims, but no idea where they go. The drag links that mount to the backbone were not touched where they mount to the backbone. So, the shims I need to deal with are the ones that go between the control arm and the drag link where the shock bolt goes through.

I do have a trackside alignment system that works well that I can use to check toe and camber. I have no tool for checking caster.

I looked through the repair manual and didnt see much relating to this. Maybe I missed it? Any advice about how to proceed would be great. Thanks!

Chris
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by AustHaflinger »

My basic understanding is that all three are essentially fixed on the rear suspension (in theory at least). Being a swing axle with no adjustment other than spring length, camber is fixed. When I bought my haf I had heavy duty rear springs which caused the rear to have extreme positive camber - the only way to fix it was to replace the rear springs standard ones - neutral camber - there is no other way of adjusting camber.

For Castor on the rear - as the swing arms are essentially fixed at the diff end by the fulcrum pins - if there is not damage Castor and toe in and out is essentially fixed. The supporting arm that tie and support the swing arms to the chassis tube - are exactly that - support arms they are not there to adjust the toe in/out or castor but are there the support the swing arm and take forward and aft forces in the swing arm off the fulcrum pins. As such the shims are there to ensure there is no slack (forward/aft movement) in the swing arm. So you need to ensure the swing arm is correctly connected to the diff and the flucrum pins adjusted corrected. The support arm then needs to be shimmed to ensure it fully supports the swing arm, noting too much shimming will try to push the swing arm back so loading the fulcrum pins (wearing) and too little shimmimg will try to pull the swing arm forward and also cause wear on the fulcrum pins - you need the Goldilocks position where it is just right where where the shims are holding the swing arm in just the right position so there are no excessive loads on the fulcrum pins.

The front is basically the same as the rear as castor and camber is fixed - unless something is damaged but of course toe - in and out can be adjusted for steering.

In summary - if your fulcrum pins are not worn, and adjusted up and there is no damage to the swing arms etc - then once the swing arms are correctly fitted - you only need to shim the support arms to take up any gap - so it is a nice firm fit, nothing more.

Different springs may change camber.

Garry
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by heinkeljb »

I suppose we should have told you when you bough the Haflingers that you would have a lot of "learning" to do! These machines have some very strange methods of dealing with issues that are simple on other vehicles.

The swing arm fulcrum pins are one, the Handbrake is another and the wheel hub bearing system is yet another!

Still as Gary says, get the play out of the fulcrum pins (two sizes based on early or late model, and 3 oversizes on the bushes and pins. Then use the shims you took out to see if they are correct to take up any play - adding or removing them until you get is just right. If you have to err one way or the other, I would suggest you err towards "pulling" the axle forward as most of the shock in road use will be from traveling forwards and trying to push the axle rearwards.

John
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Rabbit 16v
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by Rabbit 16v »

Great, thanks guys. Thats exactly what I needed to know.

Yes, I didnt expect to need to learn this much, this quickly, but I suppose having more knowledge is better, lol. I think I have the axles down, I know the inner workings of the transmission, fulcrum pins, but not the handbrake yet.

Famous last words: the handbrake cant be THAT hard, lol!

Thanks again, that makes me feel a lot better about this.

Chris
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by heinkeljb »

Lurch has a hand brake problem currently, so I need to take Lurch to pieces to sort that out as soon as the weather warms up!

John
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by Rabbit 16v »

Fun! Lol!

I suppose I will make sure everything is adjusted properly for the handbrake when I put it back together.


Chris
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by heinkeljb »

Hand brake in theory is quite simple. The lever in the cab, pulls a rod that runs along under the platform. On the end of the rod is a wheel. One end of a cable goes to one rear wheel. Then goes round the wheel on the end of the rod to the other side wheel.
When you pull up the handbrake lever, it pulls the rod with the wheel forward, which in turn pulls the cable, the ends of which are connected to levers on the hubs. The wheel on the rod allows one side brake to move more than the other side, but still provides movement to the levers on the hubs.

The "interesting" bit about the handbrakes, which is where the Haflinger throws another of it's "why on earth did they do that" at you is that inside the hubs there is another intermediate lever before the brake shoes are moved!

Getting the arm on the outside of the hub on the correct spline setting also has a lot to do with how the handbrake works. Too far towards the front of the Haf and you run out of leverage / movement of the brake shoes. Too far backwards and you can't get the cable connected!

Really not sure what's gone wrong with Lurch's handbrake, except that it appears that when the handbrake lever in the cab is pulled up, it will go right up high and still no handbrake effect! Probably got the spline setting wrong and not moving the arm inside the hub enough. Another possibility is that mating surfaces of the two levers inside the hub have worn to the point that there is too much slack movement in there before anything starts trying to work.

John
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by AustHaflinger »

heinkeljb wrote:Another possibility is that mating surfaces of the two levers inside the hub have worn to the point that there is too much slack movement in there before anything starts trying to work.

John
Yes this is a trick for new players - wear on the arms within the rear drums/hubs.

The lever inside wears and allows the lever attached to the splines to ride up and over so no handbrake.

Correct position = note as the lever on the right is pulled by the cable it rises and acts on the lever on the left which applies the brakes. There is not a lot of contact and there are high loads so the contact points wear - you can see where mine has been welded to build the worn area up = actually works Ok as the metal in stick welding rods is a bit harder so slows down future wear.
2015-01-06_13-39-54_483.jpg
When the left lever is worn and the handbrake is pulled the right lever rides up and over the left lever so the brakes will not work - and to get it back you have to remove the brake drum and lever the levers back into the correct position (thankfully the handbrake on the other wheel will still continue to work unless it has the same issue - welding the worn area, and in doing so making it wider then grinding to shape fixes the issue - I also put a little grease on the touching services to lubricate them - not too much or it gets onto the brake shoes.
2015-01-06_13-34-02_671.jpg
You can see in the above pic pulling the handbrake which rotates the right lever clockwise - the lever now has nothing to operate on. Again why didn't that just have the handbrake cable activating the left lever that is connected to the shoes I have no idea.

My handbrake also needs work at the moment - when pulled will not hold on a hill but is OK if left in gear. The cable is adjusted right up so I will need to move the lever on the outside of the rear hubs a spline or two - a job from experience should be simple but is a real pain in the ......... to do, hence I have not done it while the handbrake sort of works with help from the gears - with the handbrake on by itself the car will move but not roll away.

Garry
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by Rabbit 16v »

Thanks for that. Ja, I put it all back together today. I was aware of the handbrake pawl and how that worked. Of course putting it back together, I noticed that one of the adjusters has its dowel broken off and as such, cannot adjust anything. I was pretty tired of taking that damned hub apart, so I put it back together knowing this was an issue. I will deal with it later.

I hesitate to say, but I am feeling like an expert at this point, lol! I think I might actually be one once these are back together completely. The green one is almost done, but ran out of gear oil. Then thought I would lube the zerks, and ran out of grease in the grease gun. Figured I would do something else like install the rear skid plate only to find out the front mounting bracket for the skid plate is different between teh two. Gah!

Soon enough though!

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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by AustHaflinger »

Yep there is a steep learning curve when you have no hands on support and you only have your own general mechanical knowledge and this forum to help. You soon become an expert. i find the workshop manual of limited use and use the handbook and parts manual the most.

I have mentioned this a few times on here - I have had my Haflinger since mid 2012 so nearly 6 years with no previous of them before hand. In that time I have only sighted another Haflinger once at the residence of an acquaintance and I have never seen another either statically or on the road in the entire time I have had my vehicle. So this forum has been invaluable for me.

I think John got his Haflinger a little before I got mine and we generally have had different issues to each other and he has been a great help with some of the issues I have had to deal with. He has had dynastarter and gearbox issues where I have had engine and hub problems and we have both been on steep learning curves - and share views about some frustrating engineering in these cars.

You have become an expert really quickly and we all look forward to when that expertise is able to help others (me) in the future.

Garry
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by ogdenenterprise »

I used these clamps to hold both of the levers forward where the handbrake cable connects to the rear wheel drum, they go from the lever to the axle so you can easily pull the cable forward and connect the wheel to hand brake rod.

Dave
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by Rabbit 16v »

Thanks guys. Ja, I am realising that I have gotten myself into a rather obscure niche of normally useless information except for the others that share my plight. Haha!

I can see a light at the end of the tunnel though. I drove the green one today.

I was bleeding the brakes and couldnt get any fluid from the right rear wheel. Started opening unions until I could get fluid and deduced I had a collapsed line. I figured this would be a good time to upgrade so I got some stainless steel flex lines that are a direct fit from a VW only to find the strangest thing happen. I have never seen this before. The double bubble end of the hard line would not seal on the female end of the flex line. I couldnt tighten it down and the hard line would spin and leak brake fluid. I ended up cutting the end off and reflaring it. Worked great and no leaks! Bled the brakes and went for a test drive. Only to find out the OTHER side is doing the same thing. Gah! So tomorrow it goes back on the lift for that repair.

hand brake works great, so I had to go for a short drive haha!
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by heinkeljb »

So the VW stainless steel line are NOT a direct fit then.. The flare is obviously slightly different. You re-flaring it put a "modern" shape on it so it works. Nice to know it can be done though.

Well done, have you put the 5 speed gearbox /diff in the green one (along with the engine from that vehicle) or it is as it arrived?

John
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by Rabbit 16v »

I see. I just chalked it up to them being old and soft. The lines dont seem to be made of steel like I am used to. Oddly, the other end is sealing. For now anyway. No matter what, at least I know the replacements will likely never need replacing again.

Yes, I fitted the 5 speed, hub gears, and higher output motor from the white one into the green one and vice versa.

Well, not quite yet as it seems the shim that goes between the torque tube and the gearbox got botted across the shop and so I get to take the engine/gearbox out again to put the shim back in. Should be short work of it though. I plan to have that wrapped up Saturday or before.

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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by jleftbrane »

get the play out of the fulcrum pins (two sizes based on early or late model, and 3 oversizes on the bushes and pins. Then use the shims you took out to see if they are correct to take up any play - adding or removing them until you get is just right.


Where would a person get these fulcrum pins and bushings etc?
Thanks
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Re: Wheel alignment and control arm shims

Post by heinkeljb »

HaflingerTechnik have one sort fulcrum pin and bush - if I remember correctly, the early one. Problem appears to be that the swing arm is made to take either early or late variations and I don't know if you can fit early bushes into the later swing arms.

The various European suppliers should have them, although they are likely to be expensive as they will be made at current prices!
https://www.autoquariat.at/
https://www.prokschi.at/

I am sure there are others, but I don't have time right now to dig them out. Will try later unless someone else produces a list of Haflinger "bits" suppliers before me!

John
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