Engine Died

[heinkeljb]

I know what you means, but is it across the board and not limited to parts for specific makes of things.

I think most reproduction parts are made as copies of worn original parts rather than from new "never fitted" items. Or they are made on tooling which has seen so much use that it is worn and therefore does not provide consistent repetition of original measurements.

There is also the overall point of making the part as cheaply as possible to maximise profit - less quality control.

Atleast you had a replacement bearing - what do you do when the part is unobtainable? Have one made from your "broken" sample and still run the risk of having to "fettle" it when fitting it..... So you can't win what ever you do!

Sounds like you are getting places with your rebuild - do you have a dead line to get it done?

John

[AustHaflinger]

I certainly agree but I just wish the makers of these parts would just do the final stage of the Quality Control process and check that they actually work. In my case if I had not detected that the clips would not stay in, there is an excellent chance I would have to pull the engine out again to fix after the first few gear changes.

No deadlines as it is winter here and while warmer than usual I am feeling the cold so only doing bits and pieces as I feel like it. Today I put the engine back on the engine stand to start dressing the engine before putting it back in - if i get a chance tomorrow, set the tappets, put the rocker covers back on and then go out to buy a new oil filter and black and red spray paint the paint the red bits on the engine and the repaint the tin wear.

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

The engine has been fully drained of oil and tomorrow I am intending to put in the new oil filter. So on oils, before I start the engine do I need to prime the oil pump or will it suck the oil up. If it does need priming, how do I do that with the engine fully assembled except for external tin work and accessories.

Thanks

Garry

[heinkeljb]

I would just turn it over on the Dyanastart without plugs in, for a couple of bursts of about 10 -15 seconds each, that should get the oil into the oil galleries and as far as the big ends with the least amount of load on any part.

The oil pump is self priming so as long as there is enough oil in the sump to cover the oil pickup it will pump it through the rest of the engine.

John

[AustHaflinger]

The oil pump is self priming so as long as there is enough oil in the sump to cover the oil pickup it will pump it through the rest of the engine.

John

So the pump is self priming . To be sure I was thinking of pouring oil in from the oil filter end before I put it in to fill the oil pimp.

Cheers

Garry

[heinkeljb]

The pump must be self priming - unless it is faulty, because if you allow the vehicle to tip to one side and the oil level is very low, the oil pressure light would come on as it sucks air in instead of pumping oil. Then when vehicle rights itself, the oil pressure build back up again and the light will go off. Not that I have done that in the Haflinger you understand! Most, if not all oil pumps which are made with two gears meshing are self priming.

Good Idea to pour some oil in through the oil filter hole, but I am not sure you will get very much in that way unless the engine / oil pump is turning.

I take it you assembled the engine with oil in various bearings as you went? There is an oil available which is designed to go on the CAM shaft which is thick like treacle - means the cam followers are not running on bare metal whilst waiting for oil.

If you still have the rocker box covers off, you could squirt a lot of oil down the push rod tubes.

John

[AustHaflinger]

The Rover V8 that I am currently building is not self priming - hence the question about the Haffie arrangement.

The Rover will always suck up oil if it has been running even after it has sat for 10 years there is always oil in the system and that allows the pump to continue sucking when fired up. However if the engine or the oil pump has been disassembled then the oil pump has to be filled with petroleum jelly so that it provides the vacuum in the pump to pull up the oil.

I was just concerned something similar may have been needed for the Haffie.

Cheers

Garry

[heinkeljb]

There is no mention of having to do any thing like priming the oil pump in the repair manual, So just turn it over on the Dynastart a couple of times without the ignition on and watch the oil pressure light / oil pressure gauge, it should show that it is pumping oil around the place very quickly.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Yep thanks - yes happy that no special priming is needed - I will pump it up by hand before starting and all should be fine.

Cheers

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

Bugger,

Can you spot the mistake.



Clue - the view is from the back of the engine and you can see the spark plug hole.

I have had the engine back for two months now but due to other priorities and the weather have not done much work on the haffie. At the stage of putting the tin work back on the the blindingly obvious struck me - I don't know how I didn't notice before.

The heads are on the wrong cylinders so the spark plugs are at the back . So after setting up the valves etc the heads have to come off top go on the right cylinders - will also need to check my modified pistons are on the right way around as they have indents for the valves.

The engine builder has a good reputation and charged quite a bit so it is disappointing to find this at this time.

Oh - any one know what the torque is for the head/barrel studs. I assume they have a diagonal tightening sequence.

Garry

[safari-haf]

Hi Garry,

Wow!!.. That is quite a mistake for a "reputable" engine builder! Can you not get them to rectify their mistake?

Cheers,

Paul

[Julian B]

Oh - any one know what the torque is for the head/barrel studs. I assume they have a diagonal tightening sequence.

I believe that the figure is 22.7 N-m (or 18.1 kb-ft), but PLEASE get confirmation from someone else before you use that number as I'd hate for it to be wrong ...

[heinkeljb]

Gary,

The daft repair manual lists a lot of torque settings on the dismantling sequence sections! Cylinder Heads are are actually listed an the assembling section....

Quote:

Tighten the cylinder head nuts diagonally with a torque wrench reading of 18 - 21.7ft - lbs. (2.5mkg)

Unquote.


It also makes mention of there being two types of valves... early ones with one grove for the cotters and later ones with three groves which are self rotating! So do not interchange the top valve spring retainers or the cotters.

Like Julian, I would get the engine guy to redo his work if only so that he knows for next time not to put them on back to front! You never know, he might try and start advertising as a Hafi specialist.

John

I wonder if it would run with the heads like that? Too expensive just to try as as an experiment though

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks for those torque numbers.

I will be contacting the builder tomorrow and pointing out the error of their ways. It will be more hassle to take the engine off the stand, load it in the car, take it over and then get it back.

It took a whole 10 minutes to remove both heads. I am now thinking the assembler got confused as to which was the front and back of the engine because the push rods were also around the wrong way. When I pulled the engine down originally I marked each push rod as either front or rear and which cylinder. When I pulled them out this afternoon the ones marked rear were in the front and the ones marked front were at back - this would actually mean that the right push rod was on the right valve but would mean that the exhaust lobes on the camshaft was opening inlet valves and vice versa for the for the lobe on the inlet side.

The other issue is that the arrow on the top of the piston is pointing to the rear where on most engines its points to the front but I will check when I ring tomorrow.

I will put it back together tomorrow after speaking with the builder - should take about half an hour and most of that will be setting the tappets.

Hmm - beginning to think that in an earlier lifetime I must have done something nasty to a Chinaman - like run him over. Sorry Mr Chinaman - I did not mean it.

Cheers

Garry

[heinkeljb]

I hope you ask for a discount seeing as you are doing at least a quarter to a third of the work they should have done!

I presume they, (the engine builders) thought it was like a BMW boxer twin motorcycle as to why they built it wit the heads that way round - it would be correct for that engine.

Did you give them the engine already dismantled? In which case thy guessed as to how it went back together rather than ask which would have been the better option.....

John

[AustHaflinger]

Mentioned on the "What did you do on your Haflinger today" thread I have put the engine back in.

Today I went to put the exhaust back on - first the pipe that is brazed to one of the 90 degree bend that bolts to the engine has cracks in the brazing so I had to rebraze then - no particular issue. Next the exhaust manifold was about 1/16th inch out, so the flanges would not go over the exhaust studs but again a little heat from the oxy/acetylene to the exhaust pipe fixed that no issues.

Then the real problems started. Putting the nuts on the studs to tighten up the exhaust - one stud on either head stripped out of the head. Not much torque had been applied and there was no issue with the remaining studs in each head.

On closer inspection, one stud had not been screwed in all the way and had been held with only a couple of threads. With this one I will run the thread tap through the hole and put a new stud in and seat it right to the base of the hole. The other stud hole is more problematic as it had previously been stripped and a helicoil had been installed. Whoever did the job looks as if they drilled slightly too large a hole and there was minimal new thread as the stud pulled the helicoil out.

So I will try and get a suitable threaded insert, rather than a helicoil, tomorrow and see how we go.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Seeing as you have modified heads, you might have to go to the expense and hassle of taking the head off (again) and getting the offending hole welded up by someone who knows how to use a TIG welder!
Then getting the hole re-drilled and tapped correctly. If you go that route, make sure you take them the manifold joint so they drill the hole in hte correct place....

Might be worth putting a bit of "locktite" on the one missing a couple of threads to make sure it stays in place. A medium strength version should do the job.

John

(You're getting there, but it does seem to be two steps forward and one step back at the moment)!!!

[AustHaflinger]

I do not feel like running around to get bits to fix this so I have booked a mobile service to come this afternoon to have a look/fix this. Is cost effective.

My main concern is that the stud that had already been helicoiled has already been drilled out so there may not be enough in the wall to fit a threaded insert.

In that case the head will have to come back off for welding the hole up.

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

The thread repair guy has been and gone.

Both studs had previously been repaired with helicoils so I had the repairer remove them and put threaded inserts in. When he was doing the first one the was "expletive, expletive" from the repairer.

He said that when putting the insert in it had pushed through into the rocker cover space in the head and that thickness there was less than 1mm. I was then concerned that it had damaged the head and that further repair would be required - but the guy said that many vehicle actually have the stud hole all the way through and with the insert sealed with the stud there would be no issues.

I later had a look at a spare head I have and they were already cracked in the same area so is not really problematic.

See the pimple and crack in the centre of the pics.




Pushing through is caused by using exhaust studs (like the oem ones) that do not have a collar on them that restricts how deep they go.

In the end the inserts went in well - I have new studs that have collars on them so they cannot go deeper than about 8-10mm into the head.

So back to it tomorrow

[heinkeljb]

Gary,

As long as your "collared" studs do not prevent the manifold from sealing against the head when you have a gasket in between, then you should be alright.

The only thing I can think you need to check on is that the valve spring is not fouling on the "pimple" that has been created. If it does, then careful use of a needle file should give you clearance.

Did you get both sides done or only the side with the stud that pulled out?

John