Poor Lurch - Engine making horrible noises!

[heinkeljb]

So I forgot about going to the Haflingerandpinzgaurer UK clubs meeting last weekend. Was reminded by a phone call asking where I was! So quickly throwing camping gear etc, on the back of Lurch, I set off. The meet was not really that far away so I didn't see a problem, but I guess I forgot to do some essential checks before setting off.
Anyway, I travelled about an hours distance from home when the engine suddenly started making a loud knocking noise! Pulled over as soon as I could, but must have gone about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile with it making the horrible knocking noise (I was slowing down all the time to try an reduce the load on the engine).

So for the second time in a couple of weeks I phone the RAC to arrange breakdown recovery. This time they actually managed to get a petrol van to me within an hour and a flat bed within 3 hours.

I now have to take the engine out this coming weekend to try and figure out what has gone wrong. It is possible it is something to do with the clutch / flywheel. It is possible it is some thing to do with one of the cylinder heads or little ends / pistons. More likely though, the big ends have gone.....

BAH HUBBUG AND ALL THAT!

Pictures and explanation will follow when I know more!

John

[AustHaflinger]

You are in the position having to play - pick a noise? Related to revs? What makes you think it is big ends over crank bearings? I hope it is something clutch.

Look for the easy obvious things first and work up to the bad things. Unless you have had bearing failure it is unlikely the be bearings as they wear slowly and noises start gradually and bearings normally go the that way rather than catastrophic failure.

Does the engine still run??

Good luck.

Garry

[Julian B]

Bad luck, John. If you fancy a second pair of hands when you take the engine out do give me a shout and I can pop down.

[heinkeljb]

Hi Gary,

Yes engine still runs but obviously I haven't run it for long as I don't want to make anything broken, more broken! As you say, Big ends tend to wear gradually, but it is a deep sounding knocking noise. The fact it came on quickly, suggests some thing "broken" as opposed to worn, so really I ought to reserve judgement at least until I have the engine out!

The pessimist in me has gone for the worst thing, then I can be pleasantly surprised when it turns out to be some less of an issue! Definitely engine speed related as it is there at idle and picks up with you try and rev.

So on Saturday, I shall have the Dynastart off, Carb off and then all the other things connecting the engine to the body work. When my son gets home, I will use his brawn to get the engine out on to a 4 wheel trolley.

Thanks for the offer Julian, I'll see how it goes. You might get a phone call if Michael can't help.

John

[jhon]

... but I guess I forgot to do some essential checks before setting off.

Sorry to hear John, that's more than a bit frustrating. What essential checks did you forget to do - have you since found that the oil level was low?

If you had good oil pressure I would think it unlikely to be the big-ends.

Fingers crossed for you.

[heinkeljb]

No Oil pressure light on, but then I am wondering if it is working? If the bulb has blown or is disconnected then it will never light and I wouldn't know just relying on the light. Therefore I have a oil pressure gauge, but that was showing high 60psi, so I don't think I had low oil level, but there again, I am not constantly looking at the oil pressure gauge....

Hopefully, it is just some thing broke in the clutch, I will check tomorrow before I take the engine out if I have clutch / gears!

I checked the oil level a couple of weeks ago and have not done even a couple of hundred mile since then, but didn't check the oi level before setting off, didn't check the hub oil levels or the diff oils - normally something I do before that sort of journey, but as I was in a hurry I didn't ---- but those things don't appear to be the cause of the knocking noise I have when I run the engine at idle!

Actually, I have now given up speculating on what has gone wrong, will just take things to pieces until I find the broke bit!

John

[AustHaflinger]

If you have 60psi on your gauge - that is good as that is what it should be - if you had major issues with the crank bearings then they would not be providing back pressure to the system and just letting the oil flow out and you would have low oil pressure. So the what not a perfect diagnosis that aspect is at least looking promising.

A dropped valve can have some of the symptoms you mentioned but others as well. When the engine is out and it is does not appear to be clutch related - take the rockers off and have a look then maybe the heads - they are simple to do.

Good luck

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Not sure if is "the" problem, but it certainly is a problem!

Too much end float!

I tried turning the shaft into the gearbox back and forth, doesn't appear to be any sudden slack, certainly doesn't make any knocking noises - but I suppose what I should do is jack the back wheels off the floor and stick an electric drill on the input shaft and spin it to see if it makes any knocking noises!

John

[heinkeljb]

Just stuck an electric drill on the gearbox input shaft and no funny noises when it spins - in either direction.... So don't think it is a gearbox issue.
Clunking noise might be down to this:-

John

[heinkeljb]

I have now done a first clean of the engine so I can put it in my son's truck on Saturday to take to Alf. Same guy who did my gearbox has offered to strip and repair my engine. Partly because I don't have any where I can take it apart and put the bits whilst I get what ever it is that has gone wrong fixed. Partly because my hands no longer are as dexterous as they once were (Arthritis is a horrible thing)! Partly because I have never taken one of these engines to bit before so don't know all the ins and outs of them.

Another ulterior reason is that Alf has kindly agreed to loan me an engine to put in Lurch whilst mine is being fixed! How's that for customer service!

John

[AustHaflinger]

So you have decided the problem is internal to the engine and not an external factor like the clutch?

[heinkeljb]

I sure it shouldn't have + / - 2mm of end float! Haven't taken the clutch off, but all the bolts look and feel tight. Unless the clutch plate has started to disintegrate I can't see it being that, as the clutch still worked with the knocking noise happening.

I don't think it is the lack of one of the little springs that hold the clutch release bearing in place as again, that seems quite solid and is not flopping around.

I don't think it is the gearbox, as putting a drill on the input shaft and spinning it does not produce any funny noises at all.

So process of elimination points at engine!

For the sake of a 5 hour round trip, I might as well take the engine to some one who knows and who will be able to identify the culprit.
He has a Dynamometer which we can put the engine on and run it up. If it make horrible noises then that will be conclusive proof that it needs to be stripped and fixed.

John

[Julian B]

My engine had some horrible end float a few years back, as evidenced by it sounding like a bag of bits. I managed to resolve it by stripping it down and putting some(?) new crankshaft bearing(s?) in. Whilst still no rocket ship, the days of the horrible noises are long gone. Hopefully yours will be as simple a fix as mine was!

[heinkeljb]

Alf is going to strip it down and see what’s wrong - I think several things!
End float is excessive.
Compression on both cylinders is non-existent - it still started and ran so not sure if the no compression is due to some failure which has occurred as part of the noise creating failure like hole in the piston or stuck rings as there was oil dripping from the exhaust port ( hot left hand cylinder) , when it was tipped that way.
In the mean time I have come back home with a loan engine from Alf (700cc) so should go a bit better!

John

[Julian B]

One thought ... my experience with end float is that it (& the accompanying noises) gets progressively worse, whereas your problem seems to be more acute / catastrophic ?

[AustHaflinger]

I agree - this issue is something breaking - the issue of end float and worn bearings may be there but they were there before. If it were my modified engine I would say piston issues but unlikely on a standard engine so I am leaning to a valve gear issue but who knows at this stage.

Oh the engine will run reasonably well on one cylinder (as me how I know) but has no power.

So rockers off first to see the motion of the tappets etc - then heads off and look at valves and possible interaction of valves/pistons and if a valve has broken or burnt. Then barrels off an look at pistons/rings - see if conrods are touching the block etc.

Hopefully problem solved as for me going into the block and splitting the case is going into no mans land for me - but with that end float you may have to do it even if there is a problem in the engine top end.

Good luck

Garry

[heinkeljb]

So as people already know, Lurch disgraced himself a few weekends ago when I was on my way to a Haflinger meeting / AGM. I had another nice long wait for the RAC to recover Lurch back home. Luckily it was not as long a wait as the previous request for RAC recovery! Anyway, just to give you the reason why. Before you say it, there was sufficient oil in the crankcase and it was running well right up to the point it went very noisy!

Piston seems a bit overheated due to blowby, but not sure why other than that is the hot cylinder. So I am on the lookout for replacement parts. I need to talk to Alf a bit more about what is salvageable and therefore what needs to be sourced. So of that depends on what is available by way of over size main bearing / big ends / conrods / pistons etc.

When we know more I will post updates.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Wow I would not have picked a broken crankshaft. That does not just happen - has been developing for a long time with a crack developing before finally giving way - HOWEVER it could be like what happens with the engines in my Range Rover Sport 2.7 - oil starvation to a bearing that grabs the crankshaft snapping it - unlikely with the Haf but check what was going on with the bearings and see they may have contributed.

I am not sure if the marks on the piston are an issue or not - but it does not matter as it all needs rebuilding anyway with new parts.

Time for a stroker crankshaft, a big bore kit and big valves - zoom zoom

Good luck with it - can you sell your first born or maybe your kidney to cover the costs. I guess I should not joke but I do know what it is like to have failed engines - twice in one year.

Garry

[Julian B]

Wow - that is quite a sight!

Maybe also check that the oil tubes are allowing oil to move within the crank shaft OK too? They _may_ have become blocked?

[heinkeljb]

I am looking for a replacement crank as you might have gathered. Biggest problem will be finding one which has big end / main bearings which are either good or can be ground good and that will end up being sizes that I can get shells / bearings for.

John