Engine strip down.

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Julian B
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Engine strip down.

Post by Julian B »

My engine has been making a fairly dreadful noise for some time now, so I have removed the engine for inspection repair. I split the crank case open today, and (having already found a load of metal "bits" in the oil yesterday) see that the large cog on the camshaft and the small cog on the crankshaft are very badly worn - almost serrated. The camshaft is marked with a large "2" - I am aware that other types are available, but not sure if this is the best one to have?

Over the next couple of days I will measure the bearings & shims etc, to try to work out whether I need new ones etc. I presumably will because I was suffering from a significant amount of "end float" (as in I could push / pull the fan belt pulley / crankshaft along it's length by maybe 2 or 3mm).

I attach a photo of the two cogs, and hopefully you will be able to see the wear!

This engine is not the original one that came with the Haflinger from the factory in 1962. But as luck would have it a couple of years ago I managed to track down the original crankcase (only) that does match the Wagenstammkarte and so ideally I would like to re-build the engine using the current moving components and the original crankcase. I see that the old engine was removed because of (presumably) a big end failing and there are a few "dents" / score marks on the inside of the casing. Do you think that these will repairable? Sorry that the photo is not very good, but I have not yet had the engine casing cleaned etc.

Many thanks from a very amateur mechanic !!!
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Julian B
W Sussex, UK

| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
pathfinder700ap
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Hi Julian,

very interesting pictures! Are the camshaft gearwheels still the original pair? I think there would be a number on both wheels which should read the same. I wonder what caused this destruction of the toothes.

I think the crankcase on your picture is upside down, so the dents are actually on the top of the housing. Again, I wonder what would cause that. Maybe parts of a destroyed piston/conrod or similar? How does the camshaft geartrain and the angle lever system look like in this engine?

Kind regards,
Constantin
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heinkeljb
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by heinkeljb »

The damage to the crank case does not look too bad in the photo. As long as the grooves do not go all the way through, you should be able to use that side. The part only really has to stop the oil from pouring out! The structural strength of the casting is in the webs which don't look damaged.

If you are really not happy about using them with the damage, then you can get them Aluminium welded which will fill the marks completely, you Then have to grind off the excess to make them areas flat again.

Sorry, don't know enough about the cam shafts to tell if the Number 2 is the best to use or not. They do look like they could be used again (unless you can't obtain them new).

I think the person to ask would be the guy in America who stock spares and builds engines.

John
Last edited by heinkeljb on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !

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SAM
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by SAM »

Hi Julian

From what I have learned a #5 cam is the way to go as it was used in later model Haflingers and is probably the best for all round performance. There is another a #3 I think that is for high performance but unless you are building a racing Haflinger that is not necessary.

I had a similar story with my engine. A nut was dropped down the opening when the oil filter was being changed and it munted up all of the teeth on the camshaft gears.

Image

The camshaft gears come in a machined set. Have a word with Dale from Haflinger technic I got a machined set from him.

With regard to the casing a good TIG welder will fill up those holes in a minute, and at least your mind would be at rest when you put it into service.

Good Luck

Sam
SAM
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by SAM »

Hi Julian

I forgot to mention the camshaft and the gears come as a set not just the gears. The large gear is riveted to the camshaft already.

Sam
Westernair
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by Westernair »

I bought an NOS number 5 setup from Technic, it was reasonably priced and I think will be a huge improvement over the number 2 I had.
Give them a shout and see if they have more. I spent around 130 pounds (I think) for mine.
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Julian B
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by Julian B »

Thanks everyone; I will do some more cleaning today, and will check the cam & crank wheel numbers. Judging by the known end float / axial float, and the absence of any damage on the cam lifters etc I would be tempted to think that the cog damage was done by the relative axial movement between the two?

The damage to the inside of the crank case of the other engine looks to me as if it was caused by a big end failure, part of which then flailed about inside. Neither area of damage can be seen or felt on the outside, so I would be hopeful that a bit of filing and filling should restore it fine. I will need to check the other key areas - especially where the bearings & cylinders sit - to make sure it is worth reusing.

I will try to source a #5 camshaft & crank gear pair from Dale asap, as whichever engine case I use will need this!

Not doubt more questions will follow as I progress, but thanks so much already!

EDITED TO ADD: The damaged cam & crank gear numbers do match - 9522C (with " ^55 " also written on the large gear, but not sure what that refers to). I do have another matched pair (#2) but they are slightly corroded, so would prefer to use a new #5.
Julian B
W Sussex, UK

| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
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heinkeljb
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by heinkeljb »

I would be loathed to do any filling of those gouges with anything other than aluminium weld. The plastic metal epoxy resin which you can buy is very good, but A): You would have to get the area very clean & dry. B): I am not sure how well it stands up to long term exposure to hot oil / temperature cycles - don't really want any of it falling out after a while and being sucked into things.

If you don't want to go the the hassle of aluminium welding then just clean up the areas and leave as is.

I know of a company down in Newhaven that can do aluminium welding (Used them) and have had no problems.

John
Last edited by heinkeljb on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Hi Julian,

I am not sure what camshaft was fitted to the Invacar engines, but you may check that as well.
I agree that the toothing was possibly damaged by the axial play, but I also suffered from end float on my engine and the gearwheels came out like new. Maybe they didn't have to run for long under these conditions.

What do your main bearings look like?


Kind regards,
Constantin
pathfinder700ap
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by pathfinder700ap »

One more question... Are there part numbers on the camshaft parts? I'd really like to find out which part number belongs to which camshaft type. It seems the information is not in the parts catalogue.

And is the tip circle of the big gearwheel 119.5 mm or 118 mm? :)

Kind regards,
Constantin
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Julian B
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by Julian B »

pathfinder700ap wrote:Hi Julian, I am not sure what camshaft was fitted to the Invacar engines, but you may check that as well.
I agree that the toothing was possibly damaged by the axial play, but I also suffered from end float on my engine and the gearwheels came out like new. Maybe they didn't have to run for long under these conditions.

What do your main bearings look like?
Someone elsewhere suggested that the damage may have been caused through lack of oil. But in the 7 years since I have had the engine it has NEVER been low on oil and I do check it EVERY time I use it. And the oil light always goes out virtually immediately the engine starts.

I could split my Invacar engine, but I'd rather not if possible. I do have another matched pair of cam & crankshaft gears in a spare parts box, but they have some surface corrosion on them :cry: , and the cam is a No.2 as well, so not ideal. They are probably the original set from the original engine I tracked down a couple of years ago but I can't be sure. Dale does have a set for sale, but he will check what No. it is. I will check the bearings thoroughly tomorrow & report back.
pathfinder700ap wrote:One more question... Are there part numbers on the camshaft parts? I'd really like to find out which part number belongs to which camshaft type. It seems the information is not in the parts catalogue. And is the tip circle of the big gearwheel 119.5 mm or 118 mm? :)
Again, I'll check tomorrow and let you know.

Many thanks,

Julian
Julian B
W Sussex, UK

| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
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Julian B
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by Julian B »

OK, I have had another look at the engine components; I can answer some of the questions asked above, but I now have some more to ask!

* My crankshaft is 49mm diameter, and this narrows down which Main Bearings I would need (see below)

* The Big End shims need replacing with 49/45 diameter shims (501.001.003.006.0)

* Whilst my current #2 cam & crank gears are beyond repair (marked 9522C ^55), I have found another matched set (marked 3326C ^55) with almost unused teeth. This is a #2 as well, so do I use them or pay GBP143 + 20% VAT for a new #5 set. How much "better" would a #5 cam be over a #2?

* The cause of the problem does seem to be axial float. The Handbook says that axial float should be within the range 0.17-0.29mm. On mine is it 1.283mm, so well out of tolerance. I therefore need a 49mm shim with a thickness of between 0.993-1.113mm. Should this shim be fitted inside the crankcase (ie between the Main Bearing and the crankcase), or outside the crankcase (ie between the crankcase and the flywheel)? The former would seem to be marginally better from the point of view of the freedom of movement of the gears, but the latter easier to fit / replace in future. Any comments?

*One of the flanges on the Main Bearing is thinner than the other, (3.26mm on the inner flange, 4.13mm on the outer flange). The total thickness of the bearing being 25.39mm. Is this correct? Or should I buy a new bearing (approx EUR 100.00?) and not bother with the shims, or just get some shims?

* The only number I could find on the small cog on the camshaft was "Miba 263" - is that the number that you were interested in Constantin?

* The original (1962) crankcase looks re-usable, despite the damage caused by the presumed big end failure at some time. Certainly the cylinder barrels fit nicely, as does the "new" #2 cam shaft & existing crank shaft.

* I will now get all 4 engine halves sonically cleaned, along with a few other components such as the fan housing and possibly the distributor & rocker box covers.

* I will need to get a couple of broken studs drilled out & replaced (oil sieve on the base of the engine) too.

Other than that I would like to think that everything else is OK.

Any comments that anyone might have on the above would be very welcomed. Many thanks!
Julian B
W Sussex, UK

| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
pathfinder700ap
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Julian,

thanks for having a look. I thought there would maybe be a Puch parts number with 9 or 10 digits, but it seems there is none. I'll have to do further research to get to know which parts number belongs to which camshaft type.

My personal opinion would be to keep the engine original and use the No. 2 camshaft. The Haflinger is an early Series I with 58 km/h hubs, so it won't become a racing machine anyway. But it's certainly a beautiful and original example.

I don't think that you can add "shims" to reduce the end fload. Where would these go? At least I have never heard of such a solution. The following picture shows that the crankshaft (blue) is being kept in its axial position by the main bearing (green, left) close to the flywheel (red):
puch-engine-color.jpg
(633.92 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
Especially when the clutch pedal is pushed, there is a large axial force on the main bearing, because the flywheel puts pressure on it. A second axial force always comes from the helical gearing of the camshaft. Once the main bearing is worn, there is a gap and the crankshaft can float in axial direction.

One possibility would be to remove metal from the flywheel, shown red in the following picture:
flywheel.jpg
flywheel.jpg (71.47 KiB) Viewed 3825 times
By doing that, the gap caused by the worn main bearing can be eliminated. However the flywheel is also "hurt". A better possibility would be to buy a new main bearing. But first I would check if it is really the main bearing that causes the float. Compare axial dimension used vs. new bearing (sadly I have no new ones, so I can't come up with a dimension).

I hope this was understandable and helps a little bit!


Kind regards,
Constantin
HaffyHunter
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by HaffyHunter »

Hi Julian,
I don't know that installing a #5 cam in a Series 1 engine will work well as this cam is intended to be in combination with the Zenith carb so air volume using the Weber may not be sufficient.
The Haflinger Repair Manual makes mention of two topics that apply to your crankshaft endfloat issue.
1) Do not alter or modify any bearings
2) With flywheel fitted, if end float is insufficient (assumed meaning "too tight") then insert one or more paper gaskets between the flywheel and crankshaft.
The manual does not seem to mention any method to resolve excessive end float so I think the only proper method to correct this problem is to replace the bearing. I wouldn't recommend trimming the flywheel as you might easily encounter clearance issues (refer to Repair Manual Tolerances section).
I have a few new original crankshaft bearing sets on hand so I'll measure the bearing flanges and post the findings for you this evening. As I recall, both flanges should be the same thickness.
Incidently, you should check the crankcase halves for excess wear at the bearing seat locations.
Cheers for now,
Steve
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by HaffyHunter »

Hi Julian,
I was mistaken in my previous post when I recalled that both bearing flanges were the same thickness. In fact, the side facing the crankshaft web is thinner. I measured the three new bearings that I have and here are the results:

Bearing "A" Steyr Puch NOS
Inner flange= 2.78mm
Outer flange= 4.10mm
Overall width= 24.90mm

Bearing "B" Steyr Puch NOS
Inner flange= 2.80mm
Outer flange= 4.10mm
Overall width= 24.90mm

Bearing "C" Leo Castiglione's Reproduction
Inner flange= 2.72mm
Outer flange= 4.18mm
Overall width= 24.90mm

Cheers,
Steve
SAM
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by SAM »

Hi All

Thanks Constantin for the images it makes it very clear. What do you think about machining a shim or thin washer to sit on the face highlighted in Yellow. I have also highlighted it in yellow in the section view as well?

Image

Image


I am in the same position my main bearings are within tolerance but I have some axial float.

Let me know what you think of this option?

Thanks

Sam
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Julian B
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by Julian B »

Thanks, Steve. I have now gone off the idea of using a #5 camshaft, and will stick with the spare #2 that I have, as it is a) the "right" one for the engine and carb etc, and b) the cheaper option. The cogs are a matched pair, and the teeth in very good condition.

I have remeasured the Main Bearing (the one that goes next to the flywheel), and it is also as close to 24.90mm that I can get to with my micrometer screw gauge, so that can't be the cause of the end float - which I still think is <=1.3mm. But if so, where is this end float coming from?

Dale at Haflinger Technik suggests that for a 50 year old engine doing limited mileage such end float isn't worth worrying about; but whilst I accept this view, I remain concerned about the rattling noise. This MAY have been caused by the damaged teeth not being correctly aligned (timing line to timing line) by a previous owner, and if so this would have had all sorts of other issues re: timing and power output etc etc.

Whether I a) build up the engine end of the flywheel, b) insert some copper shims in the end of the flywheel, or c) machine out the hole in the flywheel, I can't see how this will resolve the end float. To me the "obvious" solution would be to add some shims WITHIN the engine - between the first main bearing and the first crank shaft counter weight, but this doesn't seem to be an available option. Maybe this is due to a lack of understanding on my part, rather than anything else ...

So, my plan now is to fit two new pairs of con rod bearings, sonically clean the engine casing, and put everything back to together using the new cam & cogs. It doesn't fill me with confidence, but I am at a loss as to what else to do.



PS I have uploaded a sound file to https://dl.dropbox.com/u/888587/Memo%203.mp3 . Hopefully you will hear the rattle that the engine was making, with the top engine compartment open and the mic ~ 1m from the engine.
Julian B
W Sussex, UK

| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Sam,

I personally don't think that adding a ~1 mm shim would be a good idea. The shim would be sandwiched between the flywheel, which is rotating at engine speed, and the main bearing, which is standing still. I am not sure if such a thin shim would have a long life under these conditions. By the way, are you the Sam from "Italian Job" workshop?

What I find strange is, that Julian's used main bearing seems to have the nominal thickness that Steve measured from his NOS bearings. I would have expected that Julian's bearing is thinner (= worn), but this doesn't seem to be the case. I've been discussing that with Julian and he will try to assemble only flywheel, crankshaft and main bearing to further investigate the gap.

Regarding the rattling noise: One comment is, that it is known, that the valve train of earlier Haflingers is more noisy, see e.g. this service bulletin from 1968:
camshaft-sb.jpg
camshaft-sb.jpg (130.74 KiB) Viewed 3408 times
But I am not sure if this explains the sound you posted.


Kind regards,
Constantin
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heinkeljb
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by heinkeljb »

I am not really in a position to say with 100% certainty that the following is going to solve the issue the two of you face but;

Have looked at the exploded parts book for position of things and the various sizes being quoted, I have to assume that the end float problem originates in the position of the main bearing with the flanges on it. As the parts book offers NO different sized bearing(s) we can assume that the one bearing size that has been quoted 4 times in the thread must be the only size required (+ / - 25mm).
The means that the gap between the web of the crank shaft and the flywheel is where the end float is coming from.

As the parts book makes no mention of different sized thrust washers or some such item, I conclude that your "extra" gap must be because the flywheel is not attached to the crank shaft correctly (assuming that there is no obvious wear on the two surfaces which touch the flanged main bearing).

There is a "gasket" fitted between the fly wheel and the crank shaft and a "pin". Both these items have a value shown in the parts book. The "gasket" could be a metal washer for all that I know, but it appears to be of 1mm thickness in the parts book. (Is it?). The pin is listed as being 14mm long (Is it?) Are the surfaces these two thing fit to clean? e.g. the holes that the pin goes into might have some gunge in the bottom which is preventing the flywheel from being closed right up against the crank shaft.

Can some one measure the distance between the flywheel and the shoulder of the crank shaft so you can check yours against that?

As there are no "oversize / undersize" values listed for the main bearing which holds the crack shaft in position, then if the flywheel is flush against the crank shaft and that distance is too big - that means the crank is scrap (according to the book). In practice that means someone is going to machine up a "bespoke" flanged bearing to take up the clearance, or you will put some shims in either side of the flanged bearing to take up the clearance.

John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !

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HaffyHunter
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Re: Engine strip down.

Post by HaffyHunter »

Hi Julian,
The sound seems to be coming from the valve train. This could be due to a worn cam lobe, a worn cam follower bearing, a sticking cam follower or a worn cam bearing which is causing "float" in the cam axis.
Incidentally, has the governor been working on your engine?
As for the crankshaft end drift, as John has suggested there must be something amiss with the spacing of the flywheel to crankshaft web. Since the crankshaft is much harder material than the bearing it would be reasonable to assume that any wear issue would be measurable in the bearing width first as it would be the sacrificial material. Also as John mentioned, the problem is likely within the seating of the flywheel to the crankshaft. There is a copper shim that resides in this joint and it must be replaced with a new one whenever the flywheel is removed. Perhaps a previous repair was done and an incorrect copper shim was used on reassembly. Perhaps there is more than one of these copper shims in your flywheel? It is also possible that someone had shaved a few thousands off of the flywheel flange to repair some damage or if they thought that the fit was too tight on an earlier reassembly job.
I'll get a crankshaft measurement for you. I don't have an easily accessible spare flywheel right now, thanks to Ken Beckman ;), but can measure from the crankshaft end to the web which should suffice.
Cheers,
Steve
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