Who Can Rebuild and ReJet a Zenith Carby In Sydney or Nearby

[heinkeljb]

Is it one manifold flange which is in the wrong position or all of them? I believe the pipes are just brazed into the centre carb manifold block, so it might be possible if all of them are wrong to start again!

I have a sneaky idea that EACH and EVERY one of the Haflingers made was more or less a one off when it came to fitting external parts to them, like the exhaust system. I am sure, even in the factory, they had to "fettle" things to make them fit.

I guess it boils down to "which is the easiest thing to fix if it breaks" when it comes to fitting your inlet / exhaust manifold system. Bending an exhaust pipe is likely to be easier than bending a short brazed in place pipe.

Good luck with getting it all to fit with no leaks...

John

[AustHaflinger]

The two flanges on the carb heater pipe ends of the manifold are a few degrees out compared to my old one. The actual manifold ends are spot on. I enlarged the flange holes on the heater pipe flanges but not enough to make it fit without a bit of brute force.

Loosening the entire exhaust then retightening the lot in one go should do the trick.

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

Loosing the exhaust didn't help much so I got the oxy out and heated up the pipes and bent them - the left carb heater pipe only was a few mm out and easily corrected but the right hand one was more problematic as the flange seemed to be a few degrees out - I managed to get it on but it is under a lot of tension. Ideally I should have cut the flange off and rewelded it in the right position but that was going to take a bit of work.

I have to admit I am finding repro parts a bit tiresome as they often to not fit or require major modification - very annoying.

[heinkeljb]

I agree, very annoying! Trouble is the base from which the reproduction parts are made are usually a fair few "used" years old, so are a bit worn, bent etc.

If you could remove all the flammable stuff around the Carn, maybe you heat the manifold now you have it is place to take the tension out of it?

John

[walderse]

John,
You wrote:

"I have a sneaky idea that EACH and EVERY one of the Haflingers made was more or less a one off when it came to fitting external parts to them, like the exhaust system. I am sure, even in the factory, they had to "fettle" things to make them fit."

Might I suggest you go back and view the two factory films produced early in the production run of the Haflinger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0b2Dezs7as

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQZerV3AnYo

I would also suggest your obtain a copy of the two part technical write-up in the Britsih
professional journal Automobile Engineer from June and July 1962. I would also suggest you take a very close look at EACH and EVERY of the first ten issues of Puch Club Magazin.
http://www.club-magazin.at/
Your statement seems to allude to an issue of lack of quality control at the factory level that now translates to difficuly with fitting non-factory modified parts to others that may no longer meet specificiations. Am I missing something?

I first drove a new Haflinger in early 1974. Over the years, I have studied the design in great detail and at any given time, I keep at least six Haflingers (1962-1973) fully operational at all times. I have never had any difficulty with exchanging factory parts (both well used and NOS) from one truck to another and back again. I find that parts interchageability to be excellent. On the other hand, I have a small collection of "nightmare" parts that have undergone post-factory owner modification. While well intended, most of these sort of modifications never quite work out as the shade tree engineer/mechanic intended. I keep this collection as a reminder and teaching aid of things NOT to do.

As far as each Haflinger being, in effect, a "one off" vehicle, if that were the case, I doubt these vehicles would have seen the wide military sales they enjoyed. I know of no modern military that would tolerate any lack of parts interchangeability in any front line combat vehicle. While the early Series Land Rovers and flat fendered-US Army Jeeps may have less stringent assembly tolerances (aka: slop), the tighter tolerances found in the fit of the Haflinger does not equate to the need for greater time fiddling and fitting before each unit leaves the factory. Rather, I see the Haflinger as the best fit for the military customers who were willing to pay for a higher level of quality and innovative engineering.

In the 1960s and 1970s, the established automotive industies of both Great Britain and the USA turned out some absolutely horrible products in the name of expediency. Caught with their pants down, they scrambled to play catch-up with the ever growing Japanese quality and the high standard of quality seen in Germany, Austria and Sweden. It comes down to competing design and manufacturing philosophies: what is easiest/cheapest versus what is best. In all the research I have done on these trucks now for forty years, I find no evidence that the factory or its employees ever strayed from the ideal of making the BEST!

Hope this helps.
Take care.

Jim Molloy
Waldersee Farm
http://www.northwestmogfest.com

[AustHaflinger]

The inlet manifold bolts onto the heads nice and easy - bit what sort of design engineer put the flanges on the carby heater pipes in such as place that the holes are under the pipes so that access to the inner nuts/bolt heads are almost impossible to get at to tighten. At the design stage it would be so easy to turn the flanges about 45 degrees so access to the bolts could be made. On the repro I have there is not even room to put the original bolts into their holes and I have had to feed them up from below on put nuts on them above the flange.

The more I work on my Haffy the more I find the technology is a bit overkill and I think that in active military service in a warlike environment they would have become a bit of a liability maintenance wise on the front lines - no issue with deep maintenance but difficult to fix on the front line if needed where simple functional vehicles that are easy to repair is needed.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

The two Haflinger films are about what I would expect from a manufacture trying to sell their vehicles. The film of the factory workers putting a Haflinger together show exactly what I mean about each Haflinger being "hand made". The best bit is the spot welding... "I'll just move the spot welder ver a little bit and do another one".

I am not suggesting that the Haflinger build quality is poor, just that anything that is put together by hand, can and does have variations between them.

I agree with Gary, that although the Haflinger is a wonderful piece of technology - We wouldn't have them if we didn't like them. It does seem a tad difficult to fix if you were anywhere near the front line of any conflict. Having said that, the same is true of any vehicle, if the wrong thing breaks! Even the Model "T" Ford which Ford said all you needed was a pair of pliers, a length of wire and a hammer to fix! If a casting broke - you might not be able to fix it with out a replacement part.

John

[walderse]

John,
My apologies for my apparent misinterpretation of your original comment about the each and every Haflinger being a on-off build. Even to this day, any automobile assembly process that involves human contact will never be exactly the same from one time to the next. The spot welding seen in the vintage factory films is a far cry from the wonderous robotic welding units on many of today's assembly lines. Depending one's definition of "one off", until vehicles are manufacted 100% without human touch (computer directed robitics only), they will all be unique and require some sort of fiddling to make things fit. Again, my apologies for my misinterpretation of your original comment.
Take care.

Jim Molloy
Waldersee Farm
http://www.northwestmogfest.com

[heinkeljb]

No offense taken, It's difficult to put in words exactly what you mean at the best of times... The problem is the human element as mentioned. There could be slight variations on the amount of gasket sealant used when assembling the barrels and heads for instance which would mean the holes for the carburetor or the exhaust manifolds do not line up exactly, that would require "fettling". The wheel bearings have a pre load applied to them, - I dare say this is /was based on a human interpretation of what the specifications are.

I am sure the variations between each Haflinger (which were all supposed to be the same) are relatively small compared to some vehicle manufactures, but I am sure they exist none the less - there will always be a "Friday car" until as you say they are 100% machine manufactured! I say, long live the Friday car!

John

[AustHaflinger]

When putting on the manifold I used brand new gaskets but when the stud pulled out it damaged the one in that position - I moved one of the exhaust gaskets to the inlet manifold and put an old one on the exhaust and also used manifold cement on it. As the other exhaust flange has a new gasket on it I did not use manifold cement on it - stupid me. Now that it is all done up of course it is the next gasket joint that leaks as the repro manifold flange is not quite parallel with the other face - cement would have sealed this. I have tightened the bolts as tight as I dare so is not too bad and with use carbon from the exhaust should seal the joint.

Putting the new Zenith carby is now almost complete with just a couple of things to do. The previous owner had modified the carby linkage in the engine bay to fit the old Solex carby so I am having to make up a new linkage to link the carby to the end of the current linkage. Also the carby i had did not have the banjo fitting for the fuel inlet so the cooling fan cover would not fit on. After a 2 week search in two cities, big dollars in fuel and a traffic ticket I finally found the correct fitting not 20m from the first place I looked. Also the repro manifold did not come with the bracket that supports the air filter so I will have to make one of those up and weld it on.

The engine does idle well with the new carby and hopefully within a day or so the job will be complete and I will see how it drives.

On repro parts I have been critical of quite a few parts I have purchased for my Haffie but to be fair I also have old Landrovers and a Jaguar and exactly the same exists with their parts - the odds are that they will not fit or where rubber parts are concerned they will perish is short order - hand a Landie driveshaft boot that had crumbled in the bag on the shelf with 12 months and was never used.

So - is it the manufacturer or the seller that should be quality controlling items - certainly sellers seem to be passing items on as they get them but to me the first stage is the manufacturer but the seller should also be checking - but I do accept that sellers cannot check everything so in the end it is very often the buyer that is the QC authority.

Cheers

Garry

[Rick K]

Garry, do you mind if I ask where your reproduction manifolds came from? I'm often asked where to get them, and thus far I've not had the troubles that you have experienced. My usual suggestion is that ideally manifolds and mufflers should be sourced from the same source to ensure good fit and matching pipe diameters.

Cheers

Rick

[AustHaflinger]

Rick - Pm sent.

So I managed to get everything back on - new linkages made and adjusted, missing air filter bracket welded to the left carby heat tube, everything connected and ready to fire up.

Started up and settled to a nice idle so decided to go for a test drive - sort of went Ok but died just around the corner from home. It would not start so had to push it back home where it did start.

Now I did also have the same issue with the old carby as well where it would run but when it stopped it wouldn't start with some flooding evident. So now thinking fuel pressure as I have an electric fuel pump rather than the original mechanical one.

When I bought the Haffie it was fitted with a Facet 480616 which had a minimum shut off pressure of 1.5psi and a max shutoff of 7psi. I now have a Fedtro which is 2-3.5psi so maybe I will put the old pump back in and see how I go as i did not have this non start issue with the old pump.

Can anyone who has the later Zenith carb and has replaced their mechanical fuel pump with an electric one advise what pump they have and its specs - also if there have been any issue.

Thanks

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Depending on how law abiding you are, you could try rigging up a gravity fed fuel tank to see if it is fuel pressure that is causing your issue.

When I first got mine, people were talking about replacing the mechanical fuel pump with electric because the mechanical one apparently used too much power.... I fitted an electric one running at ~3psi but I didn't notice any difference, so I took it off. One less electrical drain.

I wonder if you have a partial blockage in your fuel pipe feed? How about disconnecting the fuel line before the fuel pump and blowing down it - you should be able to without too much effort and hear bubbles from the tank.

Another thing you could try, disconnect the fuel line after the pump, direct it to a container, then try starting the engine. It should obviously run until the carb float chamber empties, but should also fill your container with fuel. Unfortunately, I don't know how much fuel it should be capable of pumping, but at least the volume of the float chamber.

John

[Julian B]

When I first got mine, people were talking about replacing the mechanical fuel pump with electric because the mechanical one apparently used too much power....

With the almost unlimited drag caused by the 4WD, the two diffs, the four half axles, the portal gears, the brakes, the nobly tyres, the asthmatic engine, the governor etc etc etc etc, I really don't believe disconnecting the mechanical fuel pump would make a ha'pence of difference to the power output!

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks John - Julian.

I have a transparent inline fuel filter just before the carb so I can see the fuel going through - is certainly pumping up so is maybe too miuch. With the old carb the haffie often would not restart when it stopped when warm until the the pump was switched off - this indicated to me that there was maybe too much fuel being pumped to the carby.

The new carb which has just been rebuilt is now demonstrating the same issue.

I will put the old fuel pump back in and see how things go.

However if anyone does have an electric pump please let me know.

Cheers

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

Changed the fuel pump and no change - went for a test drive around the block and went Ok this time but wouldn't idle when I got back and the engine just stalled.

I disconnected the fuel pump and it burst into life but when the fuel pump was connected it died - at 1.5 -2psi it was unlikely to be the fuel pump so I looked closer down the top of the carby - with the pump running the the carby was just filling up with fuel and strangling the engine - float level me thinks.

I took the top off the carby and the chamber was certainly full - taking out the floats one was nearly full of petrol and the other was half full. As I unscrewed them they actually came apart in my hands - the glue that holds the two halves together just crumbled and this is in a carby that supposedly been fully rebuilt for a lot of $$$. I do notice that repair kits do not include floats so i assume the rebuilder just used the ones that were in the carby without checking them.

I will find out what glue is used and glue mine back together.

The saga continues.

Cheers

[Julian B]

I will find out what glue is used and glue mine back together.

When I had issues with my (single float) Weber carb (Haf would run for a while but then would stutter under acceleration and ultimately just stop running) it came down to a pin prick hole in the float that was filling up with fuel and "sinking". I tried to fix it with a tiny amount of superglue(?) but I was advised that the weight of the float is so critical that even this would effect the fuel level in the carb. In the end I bought a NOS float from Austria and the problem went away immediately.

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks Julian but these floats are in two pieces that are a press fit together and sealed with glue so i should not have the issue you mentioned with weight as long as I can get the correct glue. Being plastic I though they would have been heat sealed but it seems not. I thought of superglue but am concerned it may not last in petrol.

Cheers

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Gary,

This should be under the carb section in it's own thread, but seeing as I am here now and I have found you a suitable product.....

http://www.eclecticproducts.com/sealall.htm

I have no idea if you can get hold of it where you are or if it will have to come from somewhere far away, but it should be suitable for what you want.

If you can weigh the two floats before you glue them together so you can make sure when you have glued them together that they do not weigh a huge amount more and that the two floats are same weight when you have finished!

John

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks for the input - John I couldn't find the product you suggested so ended up with Devcon Plastic Welder glue which is 100% compatible with petrol. While is dries in a few minutes it takes 24 hours to fully cure so will refit tomorrow.

Here is a pic of the floats - the top is the split float and the bottom is the halves together.