Suspension limiting straps
- cascade.king
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 6:54 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
Suspension limiting straps
The Steyr Puch woven wire suspension limiting straps..in a word.. suck.
They were great in their day, I guess, but are prone to chafing on the shackle mounts and snapping under tension. OEM style replacements are crazy expensive for what they are.
Nowadays, off-road vehicles the world over use nylon strapping to perform the same function, some with seat belt type webbing, some with aircraft cable.
I have seen the welded motorcycle chain DIY version, but anyone running the available nylon or cable types? If so, show/tell.
Also, are all 4 OEM straps the same length when new? I have 2 snapped OEM rear and 2 good OEM fronts. All appear to be different lengths, across a 7 cm continuum.
They were great in their day, I guess, but are prone to chafing on the shackle mounts and snapping under tension. OEM style replacements are crazy expensive for what they are.
Nowadays, off-road vehicles the world over use nylon strapping to perform the same function, some with seat belt type webbing, some with aircraft cable.
I have seen the welded motorcycle chain DIY version, but anyone running the available nylon or cable types? If so, show/tell.
Also, are all 4 OEM straps the same length when new? I have 2 snapped OEM rear and 2 good OEM fronts. All appear to be different lengths, across a 7 cm continuum.
Mike
1971 North American 700AP Haflinger Pathfinder
1971 North American 700AP Haflinger Pathfinder
Re: Suspension limiting straps
The Parts Manual shows the same part number for both front and rear, so assume they must be the same length. With regards to the chaffing, do yours have the small spacer that goes between the strap end and the long bolts at either end. By spacer I mean a thick "washer" (~1cm thick) that enables the strap end to rotate around the long bolt. I am not sure if this is needed for all years of Haflinger, but IIRC I did use them on my rebuild. (1962).
The check straps are indeed crazily expensive, but to be honest the DIY chain straps that I had been using before (installed by a previous owner) were more than adequate.
The check straps are indeed crazily expensive, but to be honest the DIY chain straps that I had been using before (installed by a previous owner) were more than adequate.
Julian B
W Sussex, UK
| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
W Sussex, UK
| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
Re: Suspension limiting straps
I think it would be within the scope of most owners to be able to replace their limit straps when they break. With what? That would be the choice at the time.
To keep it original then the only choice is the expensive original style straps.
To do it cheap, the choice becomes a bit more open and depends on the ingenuity of the owner and their access to suitable material and skills.
I think most owners could probably make suitable straps from an old car seat belt and sew / pop rivet / bolt that to the original ends.
My own thinking is that the original straps are overkill in terms of the tension they can take and what they would actually be subjected to. Even if you compressed the suspension fully and released it instantly to allow the suspension to expand to the full extent of the check strap, I doubt you would be near the tensile strength of the strap.
John
To keep it original then the only choice is the expensive original style straps.
To do it cheap, the choice becomes a bit more open and depends on the ingenuity of the owner and their access to suitable material and skills.
I think most owners could probably make suitable straps from an old car seat belt and sew / pop rivet / bolt that to the original ends.
My own thinking is that the original straps are overkill in terms of the tension they can take and what they would actually be subjected to. Even if you compressed the suspension fully and released it instantly to allow the suspension to expand to the full extent of the check strap, I doubt you would be near the tensile strength of the strap.
John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !
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- AustHaflinger
- Posts: 2465
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:27 am
- Location: Canberra Australia
Re: Suspension limiting straps
I must admit I was surprised at the cost of these straps and how poorly they are designed for their role. I think they are well built with their stainless steel wires but they have no give or shock absorbing ability and mine all break around the area at the ends where the strands go around the fittings. They fail due to friction wear in this spot and the shock loads when the suspension bangs down on rough ground.
The main issue are the shock loads and if the straps had a little give in them they would last - the obvious is a webbing material but that would not be original - but if the straps could be made as they are now but using strong artificial rope instead of the stainless wire that would work.
However I would question the need for them at all - if the haffie was made so that the top and bottom of the springs were secured to the suspension and chassis then there would be no need for the straps. But again as Steyr Puch didn't do this ........
My thoughts.
Garry
The main issue are the shock loads and if the straps had a little give in them they would last - the obvious is a webbing material but that would not be original - but if the straps could be made as they are now but using strong artificial rope instead of the stainless wire that would work.
However I would question the need for them at all - if the haffie was made so that the top and bottom of the springs were secured to the suspension and chassis then there would be no need for the straps. But again as Steyr Puch didn't do this ........
My thoughts.
Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)
Jaguar XJ12C (76)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)
Jaguar XJ12C (76)
-
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:02 am
Re: Suspension limiting straps
I was admiring those straps yesterday while laying under the Hafi scraping 15 year old (minimum) dirt/concrete. it looked like a fun evening project to rewire one. A couple of vises on the workbench, spaced for correct length, would hold the end fittings. There seem to be two types. First was with oval loops (think chain links) through which each wrap passes, the second, a weaving of cable replaces the loops.
1/16" cable is cheap.
Bob
1/16" cable is cheap.
Bob
1952 Willys M-38, Unimogs from 1957, 1965, 1970, 1975, 1978, 1988, and a 1968 Haflinger NA bugeye!
Re: Suspension limiting straps
Obviously we need to know if the original straps allow any "stretch" at all. If the center to center distance does not change when they are subjected to tension, then that is the distance the new strap need to stretch to and no further. That would mean trial and error testing to see what length the new strap would have to be when put together not under tension.
I wonder if parachute cord would do the trick if woven the same way as the original? I have seen it listed as having a tensile rating of 140KG on single cord. So woven would have approx 6 to 10 (?) cords length ways and as mentioned by Bob, depending on how it is woven together, where the maximum stresses would be.
John
I wonder if parachute cord would do the trick if woven the same way as the original? I have seen it listed as having a tensile rating of 140KG on single cord. So woven would have approx 6 to 10 (?) cords length ways and as mentioned by Bob, depending on how it is woven together, where the maximum stresses would be.
John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !
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-
- Posts: 35
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Re: Suspension limiting straps
My front straps are original but the rear ones are cable as the last owner had them made.
Doug
Doug
Re: Suspension limiting straps
Working on the haf today needed 2 suspension straps.
Found a roll of flat belting purchased sometime ago for driving a planer thicknesses off a 16hp lister. Knew it would come in handy. Plenty left in case of breakages.
Should be able to replace without removing shackles.
Found a roll of flat belting purchased sometime ago for driving a planer thicknesses off a 16hp lister. Knew it would come in handy. Plenty left in case of breakages.
Should be able to replace without removing shackles.
Re: Suspension limiting straps
G,,day i have made a lot . my main bussiness is canvas work .
1 inch seatbelt webbing works best .
from memory three layers through each eye and sewn the full length .
multiple layers mean one is a wear layer on the ends .
webbing is significantly reduced in strength if a hole is put in it for a bolt or rivet
kerry
1 inch seatbelt webbing works best .
from memory three layers through each eye and sewn the full length .
multiple layers mean one is a wear layer on the ends .
webbing is significantly reduced in strength if a hole is put in it for a bolt or rivet
kerry
ex Tasmanian Haflinger agent .
1984 G Wagen 300GD auto
1984 G Wagen 300GD auto
Re: Suspension limiting straps
Talking of limit straps,
A guy in South Africa has had some made:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Steyr-Puch-Ha ... 1423302175
John
A guy in South Africa has had some made:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Steyr-Puch-Ha ... 1423302175
John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !
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- Posts: 14
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Re: Suspension limiting straps
I've bought a set from Fritz in South Africa and I'm very happy with them and the friendly service he provided.
Re: Suspension limiting straps
I have just had some made up. Our local autojumble has a guy who does all sorts of webbing, securjng straps, tow straps etc. I had some old and rusty originals. Cut off the wire and then got the ends powder coated. He has put two lengths of webbing sewn along the length. Only cost a tenner for three. I gave him a good one as a template and will get that changed over too as its on its last legs. As my poor beast will never be totally original i don,t really care too much about the straps as long as they work. They will soon be muddy anyway.
Haflinger Polycab 1973 SWB
Pinzgauer 710 1982 ex Yugoslav army ambulance, three door body.
Freelander 2 HSE TD4
Mitsubishi FTO Car of the Year.
Pinzgauer 710 1982 ex Yugoslav army ambulance, three door body.
Freelander 2 HSE TD4
Mitsubishi FTO Car of the Year.
Re: Suspension limiting straps
It appears I am going to have to replace at least one of my rear limit straps - couple of the wires have frayed / broken. So the questions arise:
1) (For the UK) Are broken limit straps an MOT failure? I assume so, but would be nice to know for certain.
2: How do you get the bottom rear mounting off? The parts book does not appear to have the rear mounting, only the front one. Is it a long bolt with a nut on one end or a stud with a nut at either end?
If it is a long bolt that goes through a hole cast / drilled through the rear drive shaft - I take it that after 40 years it will be rusted solid, so are there any tips on how you take it out?
John
1) (For the UK) Are broken limit straps an MOT failure? I assume so, but would be nice to know for certain.
2: How do you get the bottom rear mounting off? The parts book does not appear to have the rear mounting, only the front one. Is it a long bolt with a nut on one end or a stud with a nut at either end?
If it is a long bolt that goes through a hole cast / drilled through the rear drive shaft - I take it that after 40 years it will be rusted solid, so are there any tips on how you take it out?
John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !
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Re: Suspension limiting straps
hi John,
I replaced all of mine late last year. They are held in place by a long bolt I just took out the split pin at one end removed the nut and then just hit out using a drift. Make a note of the order of the washer, shims etc. Mine came out reasonably easy and had been there for 40 years. Certainly don't remember any hassle.
I replaced all of mine late last year. They are held in place by a long bolt I just took out the split pin at one end removed the nut and then just hit out using a drift. Make a note of the order of the washer, shims etc. Mine came out reasonably easy and had been there for 40 years. Certainly don't remember any hassle.
Cheers
Doug Hart
1972 AP 700
Doug Hart
1972 AP 700
Re: Suspension limiting straps
Mine passed with a broken check strap last year, but to be honest I am not sure it should have; but I read this thread with interest and I will certainly replace it due to needing to get it re-MOT'd shortly and I don't want him to think I didn't do it as soon as I got home last yearheinkeljb wrote:1) (For the UK) Are broken limit straps an MOT failure? I assume so, but would be nice to know for certain.
Julian B
W Sussex, UK
| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
W Sussex, UK
| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
- AustHaflinger
- Posts: 2465
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:27 am
- Location: Canberra Australia
Re: Suspension limiting straps
If you are worried about MOT just take the strap off (and I guess the other one as well) but don't drive offroad until you replace them.
As mentioned just take the bolt out and remember where the washers go.
Garry
As mentioned just take the bolt out and remember where the washers go.
Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)
Jaguar XJ12C (76)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
Landrover Series 1 SWB (57)
Jaguar E-type Roadster V12 (71)
Jaguar XJ12C (76)
Re: Suspension limiting straps
Having spent a Saturday busy removing and replacing the drive shaft oil seal on the front nearside hub, detailed in another thread. I received a phone call from my sister who had brought back a set of 4 limit straps (you know, the ones advertised on Ebay being sold from South Africa) which, I had bought and had sent to my Fathers house in SA.
Anyway, to get on with the epistle:-
The Sunday started off being a nice day as well, so out with the tools again.
Jack up the rear off side and remove the wheel.
Start by cleaning most of the dried on mud and crud from the bits I could get to.
Then using a pair of spring compressors, I removed the rear spring and found this:
The old limit strap was broken and had allowed the lower pin to jump out of proper cup into the grove and was starting to wear a hole in that place - SO BE WARNED - Check your limit straps every once in a while!
Now I can see the old limit strap. The top mounting point is a stud with castle nuts at each end. There is a rubber grommet blanking a hole in the engine fire wall which allows you access to the split pin and castle nut on the side the limit strap is attached. With the Heat exchangers in the way, you can't remove the top stud as it is too long and fouls the heat exchanger in one direction and the Carb preheat pipe in the other direction.
Luckily, it allows you just enough movement towards the heat exchangers to enable you to remove the old limit strap and put the new one in place.
Then it was on to the bottom mounting point. The nut came of quite easily and with some penetrating fluid, the bolt began to move, only for me to find that it fouls the exhaust silencer!
With that off, out came the bolt, off came the old strap mounting point which also appears to have been in the process of changing the hole from being round to being elliptical!
Then it was put things back in place and do things up tight. As I forgot to take a picture before I took the spring out, I shall post a picture of it back in place to show why you have to take it out if you have the heat exchangers fitted.
The black thing in the picture it the "tail" of a Zip tie which, I have not gotten round to cutting off.
Having finished that job, I changed the oil in the front Diff and went round the 11 grease points with the grease gun.
My neighbours must think I am nuts as I seem to send every weekend underneath or inside one end or the other doing something.
John
Anyway, to get on with the epistle:-
The Sunday started off being a nice day as well, so out with the tools again.
Jack up the rear off side and remove the wheel.
Start by cleaning most of the dried on mud and crud from the bits I could get to.
Then using a pair of spring compressors, I removed the rear spring and found this:
The old limit strap was broken and had allowed the lower pin to jump out of proper cup into the grove and was starting to wear a hole in that place - SO BE WARNED - Check your limit straps every once in a while!
Now I can see the old limit strap. The top mounting point is a stud with castle nuts at each end. There is a rubber grommet blanking a hole in the engine fire wall which allows you access to the split pin and castle nut on the side the limit strap is attached. With the Heat exchangers in the way, you can't remove the top stud as it is too long and fouls the heat exchanger in one direction and the Carb preheat pipe in the other direction.
Luckily, it allows you just enough movement towards the heat exchangers to enable you to remove the old limit strap and put the new one in place.
Then it was on to the bottom mounting point. The nut came of quite easily and with some penetrating fluid, the bolt began to move, only for me to find that it fouls the exhaust silencer!
With that off, out came the bolt, off came the old strap mounting point which also appears to have been in the process of changing the hole from being round to being elliptical!
Then it was put things back in place and do things up tight. As I forgot to take a picture before I took the spring out, I shall post a picture of it back in place to show why you have to take it out if you have the heat exchangers fitted.
The black thing in the picture it the "tail" of a Zip tie which, I have not gotten round to cutting off.
Having finished that job, I changed the oil in the front Diff and went round the 11 grease points with the grease gun.
My neighbours must think I am nuts as I seem to send every weekend underneath or inside one end or the other doing something.
John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !
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Re: Suspension limiting straps
Forward thinking a well designed by SDP I reckonheinkeljb wrote:Luckily, it allows you just enough movement towards the heat exchangers to enable you to remove the old limit strap and put the new one in place.
Thanks for the post, John - my next task is to do the same task on my 1970 LWB. I'm ashamed to say that off hand I can't recall what type of muffler it has, so will see how much I have to remove to access the straps.
How do the SA straps look?
Julian B
W Sussex, UK
| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
W Sussex, UK
| '62 Early Series I SWB | '72 Series II LWB |
| '56 Citroën Traction Avant |
Re: Suspension limiting straps
They are good quality, The weaving of the steel cable is good, not sure if it is stainless or just bright steel cable. The ends where they bolt on are the same basic design, but smaller that the ones I took off. They also have a hole which is the same size as the bolt rather than the way the ones I took off were made with a bigger hole and then a sleeve / collar that fits in the gap.
I was going to take the top stud out and clean it but unless you take off either the inlet manifold or the exhaust heat exchanger you can't get it out! So I ended up just moving it as far as I could towards the heat exchanger and then having to maneuver the limit strap end off and the new one on.
John
I was going to take the top stud out and clean it but unless you take off either the inlet manifold or the exhaust heat exchanger you can't get it out! So I ended up just moving it as far as I could towards the heat exchanger and then having to maneuver the limit strap end off and the new one on.
John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !
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Re: Suspension limiting straps
looks good, but why did you have to use a spring compressor? I've never needed one, the springs pretty much fall out if the lower shock bolt is out and limit strap is off.