Hub gears and wheel bearings

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AustHaflinger
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Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

This thread is a follow on from this thread http://thehaflinger.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3083 where I have talked about putting hi speed gears into my Haffie.

I am going from 70kph hub gears to 75kph gears so that at cruising speed engine revs are reduced for a more acceptable level for sustained operations.

Here are some of the relevant quotes from the previous thread.
garrycol wrote:I am not wanting to go faster but do want to reduce engine revs at cruise speed so I would like a max cruise of 60 - 70kph with the engine below 4000rpm. The new engine is even stronger than the old one and will easily pull well over redline in 5th gear. I will be putting a rev limiter on it but one that can be switched off when I street race Subaru WRXs. :lol:
Last edited by AustHaflinger on Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

pathfinder700ap wrote:Gary,

be aware that changing the hub gears is not simply taking one set of gearwheels out and putting an new one in. The hub shafts, where the large gearwheels sit on, have tapered bearings which need to be pre-tensioned correctly. This is done with a spacer ring that sits on the back side of the housing, under the square lid which is attached with four bolts.

Putting new gearwheels in means that you might need to fit new spacer rings to compensate differences in the dimensions of the gearwheels. Otherwise the tension might be too high or too low (i.e. allowing for play in the housing), which will certainly lead to an increase in wear. The pre-tensioning procedure is described in the repair manual.


Kind regards,
Constantin
Goatwerks wrote:A few quick tips, do them 1 at a time and measure gear height, replace with closest match from new set.
Use Permatex Aviation sealant on backing plate side of gasket only. And only use blue locktite if any.
Stop sheets for retainers may be re used 1 time in most cases.
Thanks for the tips - the more information the better.

Cheers

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

heinkeljb wrote:
Goatwerks wrote:A few quick tips, ~~~
Stop sheets for retainers may be re used 1 time in most cases.

Must be having a Dim moment here, can you explain which part you mean by the above please? Gaskets, seals, shims I understand but the above has me baffled.

John
Thanks Jim - like John can you clarify

Cheers

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

Ok having digested most of the above I started to do the switch on the drivers (RHD) rear hub.

Comparing the old gears with the new gears (75kph), the most obvious difference is that the teeth are a bit beefier than the 7okph gears and as expected slight different diameters and teeth numbers.

Taking Constantin's point about gear differences I measured the thickness of the new and old main gears and found the new main gears to be between .1 to .2mm thinner at their centres - meaning the wheel bearings could be on the loose side. If the thickness had been exactly the same then I would have just put them back, as they were OK before, but the small difference in size is enough to go through the checking process.

The process of setting up the wheel bearings is on page 4-4 of the manual. Basically you remove outer hub assembly and remove the hub drive cog (the top one) so the lower cog on the wheel bearing is free to move by itself. You then bolt the hub back on and remove the square plate at the back of the hub to gain access to the wheel bearing thrust washers. You insert increasing thicker thrust washers in .1mm increments (replacing and removing the square plate at the back) until the hub locks - you then then insert a thrust washer .1mm thinner and that should be the correct preload on the wheel bearing - this should allow the hub to turn with .5 - .65 lbs torque.

I don't have any thrust washers so I just reassembled the hub and did the test when you have no gear- that is put a bar between the wheel studs and hang a 1kg weight 7-9cm from the centre of the hub and if the wheel bearing is right the hub should just hold the weight.

Here is a pic of my setup.

Image

The big new cog weight 1040gms so it was the weight - here is the vid of the test.

Image

As you can see the hub just spun so the wheel bearing preload is too loose. The feel by hand is just a little binding so I would have said OK but the test indicates otherwise.

I must admit I cannot believe such a convoluted process for such as basic function - there is the right way to do things and the wrong way and as the saying says the British way but maybe that needs to be changed to the Austrian way. Most vehicles you just tighten up a big nut to the required preload and it is done.

So I suppose I have to order a full set of these thrust spacers (x4) to do this job. Can you get something suitable at local bearing shops or are they Haflinger specific and only available from Haflinger parts suppliers.

Cheers

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by heinkeljb »

Gary,

I feel your frustration with this daft method having been through it when doing the front hubs on Lurch. An over engineered solution to a common problem. Like you say, tighten a nut, put split pin through hole, job done.

The shims washers are just that - shim washers in different thickness. If you can find a local supplier who has shim sheet steel or who has suitable sized washers made of different thicknesses then you could use those.
In fact it would be better to use 1 washer of say, .5mm than 5 washers of 0.1mm each, so I am sure that something suitable i.e. correct diameter internally and externally could be found locally without having to order in from Hafflinger suppliers. (try google)!

John

P.S. I would just have put one end of my stick (dowel) under a wheel stud and then over the opposite stud with two little half moons filed in the correct places so I didn't have to use cable ties - but each to their own.
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

Here is a pic of the supposed thrust washer - really a thrust spacer.

Not really a washer but a machined spacer.

This is the face that the square plate pushes on - I could use .1mm thick spacers on this face.

Image

This is the other side - that face that pushes on the bearing race

Image

I will see if I can buy "spacer" to match locally.

Cheers

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by heinkeljb »

I know the parts manual lists that item as a single "Thrust washer" available in different thicknesses with 0.1mm differences between them.

I can't see any reason why you can't use one of those of a given thickness and then add several steel shim washers of 0.1mm thickness to make the total up the required thickness.
Or
One of those spacers and a single extra "shim" washer of the appropriate thickness to make the combines thickness up to what is required.

It is not as if this spacer is acting as a bearing in that it spins and therefore might wear. It is purely providing a compresive force against the outer race of a taper bearing.

If on the other hand you have a spacer that is to thick, there would be no reason, other than you might need that thickness spacer at a later date, to you grinding a bit off it to make it the correct thickness for your application.

Anyway, from a purely practical point of view, having the thinnest spacer and a lot of 0.1mm shims would allow you to work out what thickness spacer you require just as easily as having a box full of spacers all 0.1mm different in thickness.

John
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by Goatwerks »

You can use thin shims, I have with no problems.
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks for that - this morning I went to my local nut and bolt shop and found these - they only had 6, are imperial and are .006" (.155mm) thick. The outside and inner diameter is spot on.

Image

I first put two in and did the test but while not locking the hub it felt tight. I then tried one. The resulting vid.

Image

As you can see the it can hold the weight until lightly tapped than spins freely - to me this meets the manual requirement of just holding the weight in suspense.

So the hub was reassembled with no issues.

Image

Image

The biggest issue is reassembling the brakes - a real pain as we all know. I did damage the dirt caps on the wheel cylinder so will have to get some new ones tomorrow. Now that I am happy about doing the hubs, the longest, most irritating job will be putting the brakes back together.

Here is a pic of the two sets of gears - the 70kph ones on the left and the 75s on the right,

Image
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by heinkeljb »

I think the only difficult bit about putting he brakes shoes back on is getting the top little spring into position. There is a trick to it, have a read of he threads on brakes before you have a go yourself - I used a single piece of welding wire bent to a small hook and filed to fit the hole in the brake shoe.
Put it through, twist, hook spring on it, pull through brake shoe, twist and spring falls off into place on the brake shoe.

Then you real headache starts!

Trying to get even braking! If your hubs each turn with the same amount of force, then adjusting each brake shoe to rub (just) should be easy.

John
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

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Finished doing the hub - then I realised you don't actually have to take the brakes off to do the hubs :) . No one told me that :lol:

So the other rear hub is out - not as clean as the other side but no indication that there is anything amiss with the bearings. The top nut that is on the end of the actual driveshaft is only finger tight and probably would have come off except for the castle nut pin.

Oh one brake shoe did not have a top spring in place - it had come off at some stage and had fallen down the bottom of the brake mechanism - I have never had the assembly apart so it has been like that for a long time. The brakes have always worked well so I assume that when everything is back together with the drum on they are not crucial. I will clean it up and put it back when I reassemble the hub.

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by heinkeljb »

If that's the case, then you could leave the brake drum on as well! Actually as the brake drum doesn't even have a single set screw to hold it in place when you take the wheel off, you might as well take the drum off, if only to have a look at things and so spot things like your spring, leaks from wheel cylinder, worn out brake shoes etc.

I don't think you would ever hear the chattering that might be happening to the top gear and shaft spline over the noise of the rest of the vehicle. So check the splines for wear whilst you have it apart obviously.

John
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

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After a break I have completed both rear hubs - passenger side not rear issue but the castle nut on the end of the drive shaft is a left hand thread - took a little while to work that out - as it is a castle nut with a locking pin - not sure why it needs to be a left hand thread.

Now to the front hubs - replace the hub gears, change the speedo gears and search for the growl in the front end (pull out the front diff and search for a dodgy bearing).

I did disassembled the drivers side hub 18 months ago and replaced the king pins so this time I am starting with the passenger side. No real problems with the disassembly - as usual the main issue is the top king pin - I tries to use the same bolt I used to do the other side previously but it was too loose. So I took a spare to the car parts place and bought a new bolt - M7 1.0 - I used a spacer and screwed the king pin out.

The hub pulled out (I know you like pics)

Image

Image

The CV seems fine but I would like to regrease it.
Image

I am not sure how they are opened but as you can see this one had a little bolt welded to the side of it (I assume not original) to gain access. I assume I can fill with a solvent like petrol or diesel and clean out and then fill with CV grease when dry - how much grease goes in?

Also I need to replace the speedo drive gears - does anyone know how the brass fitting on top of the housing where the cable goes in comes off?
Image

In doing this work the steering relay was very loose and requires a rebuild - to be done when the diff is out and the steering box is very loose on lock so hopefully only needs adjustment to tighten up.

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by heinkeljb »

When you split the hub and get access tot he hub gears, you obviously have to take off the nut holding the top gear in place. With that off, you can pull the CV joint (Rezeppa joint in the manual) from the hub. Hold the shaft that goes in to the drive shaft in soft jaws in a vice, use Plumbers pliers (slip joint pliers) to undo the screw ring on the joint, it comes off, there is a rubber washer (seal) in it which is the first scrapper of dirt off the ball joint surface.
In the cup bit is another normal oil seal - make sure you have replacement parts before you pull it to pieces or you will be waiting whilst they arrive!
Once that seal is out of the way, along with you "niffty" extra hole in the side of the cup, you can now see some half moon openings into the cup half.
This is where you can attempt to introduce petrol, diesel, grease removing fluid until you think you have got it all out. Just remember it has probably been in there a LONG TIME and has gone hard. So when you think you are done, have another go!

Eventually, you will decide that you have done as much as you can to remove the old grease and it is time for new. The cup looks like it can hold about 300 grams of grey grease (manual will give you a name for it) I bought a HUGE tub, only because it was reduced and less than twice the price of two 500 gram tubs! I will never have to buy any ever again!

Use gloves and get your hands greasy! I started off using various instruments, but ended up using my fingers as the tools ended up taking as much out as putting in when you start getting the cup full.

Re-assembly is the reverse of the above.

One issue you might run into is that the cup rotates on the shaft as you try and undo the screw ring on the top. I solved this by having an extra pair of hands and a pair of Stilsons (pipe grip wrench)on the bottom shaft part.

John
Last edited by heinkeljb on Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks for that John - useful advice and instructions.

Edit - I have pulled the CV down as far as you suggested - I guess you cannot dissemble it further without grinding welds off the shaft so that the condition of the balls, tracks and cages etc can be checked to see if they are OK.

When pulling it apart, the first seal was OK but the second was damaged so I will replace it. The grease is not dried out and is clean, the CV action is good so I will just refill and reassemble with clean CV grease and a new seal.

Cheers

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by heinkeljb »

The Rezeepa joint fitted to early Haflingers has a rubber boot to keep the muck out.. They obviously decided that rubber did not last very long in that application, hence the later ones have a metal cover!

With your extra "threaded" hole on the side, you could fit a grease nipple and then pump grease in rather than have to try and push in down the half moon shapes.

If you read the thread(s) relating to the rebuild of the front hubs on Lurch, there is some information there relating to dismantling the Rezeepa joints further. Basically, they don't want you to!

John
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

Actually the hole in the side is large enough to just hold the end of the grease gun up to it and pump the grease straight in - all back together. One of the wheel bearings is a little rough so I will get a new one tomorrow and reassemble the hub - then do the other nub - for the second time in 18 months.

Then onto the front diff.

Cheers

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

Was on the downhill run of putting these hub gears in - both back and the front left done and just needed to reassemble the front drivers hub.

Well something is wrong - when I went to bolt the two halves of the front right hub casing together they would the two halves would not mate up - sits proud by a few mm and the main hub is locked - intially thought it was I had too many spacers on the wheel bearing so took off the square plate at the back so releasing any pressure on the wheel bearing but everything still remained locked up.

Something is very wrong. Either the new large hub gear is too thick, the hub casing is different somehow or I have the wrong spacer washers on the shaft.

Pulling the hub apart it is obvious the height of the outer rim (the teeth end) of the large hub gear is too large and is rubbing (being locked) by the hub casing when tightened up - the spacers are different diameters and can only go one way and this is correct.

The inner hub casing - you can just see the scrap marks at the pink pointer
Image

Looking side on at the other casing with the gear - sitting proud
Image

While the new main gears are thicker than the old gears the crucial faces on the inside are the same as the old gears so it is just the upper face that scrapes.

Here are the two gears side by side - old on the left - new on the right.
Image

Interestingly the smaller new hub gear is the same size as the old one and does not fully contact right across the teeth of the new large hub gear.
Image

The contact width is about 3mm less on the smaller gear than the larger gear.

What has caused my problem - either this last large gear is different to the others - no I didn't check them before and as the other three are in hubs I am not going to pull one out to check. The other consideration is that the hub is different to the other and is from another version - did Haflinger change hubs during production life?

What do I do about it - simply turn down the outside outer lip of the hub by 3mm - this area does not mesh with the smaller gear anyway and the inner faces are correct so they do not need touching.

Garry
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Hi Garry,

front and rear hub wheel sets have differen dimensions. Maybe you fitted them the wrong way round?


Kind regards,
Constantin
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Re: Hub gears and wheel bearings

Post by AustHaflinger »

pathfinder700ap wrote:Hi Garry,

front and rear hub wheel sets have differen dimensions. Maybe you fitted them the wrong way round?


Kind regards,
Constantin
Well that was an option I had not considered. :?

Bummer :oops: - I just checked the old ones I pulled out - yep rears are thicker in both large and smaller gears.

I didn't know that and wasn't obvious as I did each hub individually - didn't notice the differences in the old gears and in the new gears. Unless I missed it, I don't see mention of the differences in the repair manual but I now do see there are different part numbers for front and rear gears. :(

I guess people just sort of know this.

Oh well at least I have had a test run and know how to change them - I will start to fix this weekend.

Thanks for that advice as it will save a bit of mucking around later.

I must admit I am surprised at the size of these hub gears - for such a small vehicle they are quite large - the main high range tfr case gear in my 101 is only about the same size and the Haffie large hub gear - and in the 101 all the power of the 3.5 V8 is going trough that one gear.

Garry
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