Drive shaft to UJ oil seal

[heinkeljb]

When i first got Lurch, I went for an MOT and on the way back discovered that there was oil leak marks all over the inside of the nearside (LH side as you look in direction of travel) front wheel. - Diff oil. So that meant the seal and mud deflection collar were not good.

So as part of the rebuild of the front hubs, swivel pins, brakes, clean and lubrication of the universal joint(s) I replaced the strange "double thickness / double lip" oil seal and the mud deflection collar. Job done, I thought.

Stupid thing is leaking again!

So that means opening the brake system. I don't like using a clamp on the flexible hoses as that breaks the internal surface of the pipes and then you get strange braking issues. Okay, so that's only a litre of Brake fluid and the hassle of bleeding the system again.

Disconnect the steering track rod end - with the correct tool, not really a problem.

Remove the top and bottom swivel pins, possibly a pain if they have developed a wear lip, but as they were replaced two years ago I don't think they will be that bad.

Pull the hub - easy.

Pull the offending oil seal - easy.

Now do I put a speedy seal saver sleeve on the mud deflection sleeve or replace it? I do have a replacement but seeing as it is leaking so soon after having been fitted, did I get a slightly duff one?

I also have a replacement of the strange seal, but again like the mud deflection sleeve, was it damaged before I fitted it? After?
Both things are expensive things to have to keep replacing.

Has anyone done anything different? Like fit two seals instead of that one strange seal? My local bearing / oil seal has never seen one like that before and so far has been unable to get me a replacement, which leaves only the Haflinger suppliers as sources. (where do they get them from?)

I was very careful when I put the drive shaft back about not scraping it along the oil seal lip, but it is possible that it cut the lip a bit and that is why it is leaking again. The other side does not leak and I did the same on that side.

Anybody with any advice before I spend time outside in the cold and wet busy replacing bits?

John

[kerry460]

G,,day .
it is late 1 am .
possible that the new seal is already old and not soft enough to seal correctly

i have had good success with speedy sleeves . but they do need a sealant internally .

just a couple of comments .

cheers
kerry

[heinkeljb]

If I remember correctly, the seal that is currently fitted was "flexed" by me on the seal edges, obviously the outer edges are supposed to be hard. I can't say i remember it being very different from any other oil seal I have ever fitted - other than being a "strange shape" with the sort of double depth but actually only a normal oil seal section.

I'll spend a bit more time looking at my new replacement and see if I can detect any issues with it.

I was thinking of just sliding the speedy sleeve on to the existing mud deflectors oil seal surface. Are you saying I need to put some sort of sealant on there before I put the speedy sleeve on? If so, what sort of sealant? Thread lock adhesive?

Thanks for the replies, they all help.

John

[kerry460]

yes . fairly well anything that will seal the gaps
as long as it is ok with oil .
kerry

[HaffyHunter]

Hi John,

A few things for your oil leak issue, the placement of the hub seal allows for a fair bit of depth adjustment so you may be able to seat the seal so that it will have a better (tighter) fit on the deflection sleeve. If the parts you used were new from a Haflinger supply source then I would be very hesitant to use a speedy sleeve option. Also, when you replaced these parts did you also replace the o-ring seal?

If you suspect that the oil seal may have been old stock and a bit stiff you can try using an oil additive that is made to make seals more pliable. I've had good success using Lucas Oil's "Hub Oil" for this purpose. There is also Rislone's "Concentrated Rear Main Seal Repair" which works well. Just add one of these to your diff and hub gear housings then drive as normal. The Lucas Oil is normally found at heavy duty truck supply & repair shops. The Rislone products can be found at most automotive parts & DIY supply shops.

On the note of gear oils, what type and viscosity are you using? Be sure to not use any synthetic based oils in the Haflinger drive train as the original seal materials are intolerant of synthetics and leaks will become apparent fairly rapidly.

Cheers,
Steve

[heinkeljb]

Hi Steve,

Many thanks for the suggestions. The seal, "o" ring and sleeve were new from Dale at Haflinger Technik. Obviously, until I pull the hub off I can't tell if the sleeve is worn or if it is just the oil seal.

I am running EP80 although it is possible it is a multigrade 80/90. I certainly don't think it is too thin and therefore the reason it is leaking. Aas even if it was SAE 30, the oil seal(s) should hold it in. Also the seals are modern materials and not NOS, so would be tolerant of any modern day oil that was put in the Diff. Far more likely in my opinion, is that the seal or the sleeve surface is damaged in someway. The bits I took out two years ago, had very obvious damage on the sleeve.

For the sake of a can full of oil additive, I think that is the way to go to start with. I will have a look see if any of my local motor factors have some thing suitable to try.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Hi John - when I got my Haflinger I had the same seal leaking diff oil everywhere - was probably the cause of my diff bearing problems due to low oil.

When I pulled the relevant hub the seal had put in a groove in the shaft surface so as I have used speedi sleeves many time I went that route (it is all in an early thread of mine with pics). This fixed the issue.

Advance 20 months and 2500km later and I had to pull both front hubs to do my diff bearings. The hub that I had not touched previously showed its shaft seal was fine and the shaft face that it seals was fine - the side I had put the speedi sleeve on with a new oil seal is starting to show early wear - so it would appear that the material in the sleeve is not as hard as the shaft material.

So should you put a speedi-sleeve on a good shaft - my thought is no but there would be no issue if you did. As was said any groove under the seal needs to be filled. It would seem though that a speedi -sleeve used in this application will have far less life than the original shaft but has the advantage of being replaced as required - like all work on a Haflinger the downside is the amount of components that has to be removed to get to the job.

Cheers

Garry

[HaffyHunter]

Hi John,

Hopefully the oil additive will solve the leak but if you find that the seal or deflector shank has excess wear that is not due to oil contamination or installation issues then carefully inspect the axle shaft for axial runout. Look for the following conditions:
1) Bent axle shaft
2) Unbalanced axle shaft
3) Spline wear on the outboard end of the axle shaft
4) Worn Cardan joint components (pins, blocks & socket) on the inboard end of the axle shaft
If any of these conditions exist there will be excessive axial runout of the axle shaft thus causing premature wear of the seal and/or deflector shank.

Best wishes,
Steve

[heinkeljb]

Steve,

Lets hope I don't have to dismantle it at all! You've just added £££'s to a possible bill!!

Not sure how the axle shaft could get bent, it's pretty protected, but wear on the other hand - that happens! Must admit if it is down to wear in the Diff, 30,000 miles doesn't seem like a lot. Although I have no idea how well routine maintenance was applied in it's earlier life, every thing else seems reasonable (if you discount the fact I had to replace a "few" things just after I bought it). Phosphor Bronze bushes are not known for lasting for ever and water inside hubs isn't going to help bearings.

Gary,

I remember! I was doing more or less the same work you were at the time! Even down to the time of year...

John

[AustHaflinger]

Gary,

I remember! I was doing more or less the same work you were at the time! Even down to the time of year...

John

Yep you were complaining how cold, snowy and wet it was and I was complaining how hot and humid it was

[heinkeljb]

Not sure I want to be doing this every two years or so...... As I am now back at work weekdays, things will have to wait until the weekend before I can do anything.

Think I shall overfill the front Diif by as much as possible with a mixture of EP80 and oil seal swell additive and see what happens. If i end up having to pull the hub, then I can do a oil change at that point.

John

[Goatwerks]

When you inspect the seal, look for a dislodged garter spring.
It is common practice to pack the back side of the seal with cold vasaline or Transjell assembly lube to prevent loss of lip garter spring during installation.
Vasaline melts/blends into oil.

[heinkeljb]

Thanks Jim,

Will remember to look, if and when I pull the hub. Hoping to stem the tide with an additive first.

John

[heinkeljb]

I am currently trying out some "stop oil leak" stuff that is supposed to make oil seals swell or become softer. Hopefully that will work without having to resort to pulling the hub off to replace the oil seal and maybe the mud deflector collar.

I am still trying to decide why they put that strange shaped oil seal in there. Anybody got any ideas?

John

[AustHaflinger]

I am still trying to decide why they put that strange shaped oil seal in there. Anybody got any ideas?

John

I am still trying to work out why they had the arrangement of having the swing arms full of diff oil - using Brit terms - it seems a Naff idea designed by a Numpty.

Even back when the Haflinger was designed there no reason why it didn't have an external CV on the diff end and a drive shaft external to the swing arm - obviously a different design but the design of a 70s Subaru front suspension comes to mind.

But back to your question - why the special oil seal that is not available from oil seal shops in this country when really a double lip seal would have worked was well. Good question - well asked.

[heinkeljb]

So a couple of weeks ago, I had oil leaking from the nearside front drive shaft. I have the parts to cure it (I think). As the weather is not at its most clement at present in my part of the global hemisphere, I though I would try other options before pull the hub off.

Topped up the oil in the front Diff, added some "Stop oil leak" goo - the 250ml bottle reckoned it was able to treat 5 litres of oil, so I only put maybe two teaspoons worth into the front diff. Driven round the place on the odd evening and then a longer journey during the last weekend.

Have to say that although it seems to have slowed the amount of oil that appears flung round the inside edge of the tyre, it hasn't stopped it.

If the weather improves on weekend long enough for me to pull the hub and change the oil seal and possibly the mud deflector sleeve before the beginning of April when the dreaded MOT is due, or before May and the Dutch Treffen, I will obviously have to do so.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Time to bite the bullet and just do it - once it is done it is done. (says he who has been doing a lot of sooking of late)

[heinkeljb]

I wonder if any one has come up with a "quick" release brake pipe system like they have for the hydraulics on Artic' trailers? Would have to be a physically smaller plug and socket, but that would make taking the brake system apart on a vehicle much easier.

They do similar things for fuel lines, but I have never seen one for brake systems.

Just musing.....

John

[AustHaflinger]

Just musing.....

John

Procrastinating more like it

[heinkeljb]

That's the one!

Really don't want to go outside in the cold and wet and wrestle with the front hub and all the associated gubbins!

John