Front drive joint lubrication

Yakov
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Front drive joint lubrication

Post by Yakov »

The owner's manual says that the front drive joints need to be lubricated at some point. I am thinking of attempting this, as I doubt it's been done in the past decade or two on my vehicle. The manual makes it seem simple, but I have doubts about that too. Since it involves some disassembly, I'm worried that parts will be stuck or seals will tear.

Can anyone who has done this tell me if I should expect to have to replace any seals? And what kinds of wear or damage should I be looking out for when I do this?
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by AustHaflinger »

Are you talking about the front hub CV joints? If so yes they are easy, the issue is pulling all the rest of the hub apart to get at them.

I recently cleaned and changed the grease in both my CVs - when out just unscrew flush out with a solvent (I used petrol) and repack with grease. You cannot service anything else without breaking them apart - means grinding off welds and rewelding etc. You just need to be careful of the two seals - one to keep the grease in and one to wipe the ball.

Mine now have holes drilled in them with small sealing bolts so that grease can be added without dismantling.

Image

Garry
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Yakov
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by Yakov »

So do I have to take apart the hub, or just pull it off the car after taking off the two bolts and the brake line? Does the CV joint come apart from the hub in this procedure, or do I do it while its still attached to the hub?

And there aren't any seals that could break on the bolts that hold the hub to the car (the manual calls them king pins), or between the CV and the hub or the diff?

I'm glad you say it really is easy. You've emboldened me.
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by AustHaflinger »

I guess you might be able to repack the CV at the same point of disassembly as shown i the pic above but I would take it out completely which means separating the hub. As I said it is the disassembly of all the hub etc rather than the CV itself that takes the time.

You just hold the splines you can see in the pic in a vice (protecting the splines) and with a large set of plumbers pliers undo the large collar you can see at the other end - this will give access to the chamber as you bend the CV to its angular extreme - not really possible to pull it apart though. You will most likely need to replace one or both of the oil seals - available at any bearing shop.

To get the hub off - yes you have to remove the king pins. Can be a job in itself particularly the top one.
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heinkeljb
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by heinkeljb »

Yakov,

Have you read through the posts between Gary and myself, near the beginning of this forums life? They should be in the Drive train section. We have both had to do the task you are contemplating.

As Gary has said, Overall it is not very difficult if you have access to a vice and the appropriate tools. There are a couple of hiccup points worth mentioning.

The first is that if the Swivel pins / King Pins can be difficult to remove if they have developed any play. Particularly the top one as you can only PULL it out via the top thread. If this pin has developed a "step" in its surface into the bronze bush that is in the hub, then you can have some real issues trying to take it out. Bottom one you can hit from the top even if you can't hit it very hard (no room to do so, but you could also make a special tool which would consist of a bar of metal to go over the top bit with the thread, then use a BIG two leg puller with a suitably sized socket into which the bottom king pin would fit and just wind it out.

The second real issue to watch out for would be when you put the splined shaft back in place - if you don't get the splines lined up you could push the dive shaft back into the diff and dislodge things at that end which would mean you would have to take the Diff side cover off in order to put things right!

Haflingertecnik do a KIT which has all the swivel pins, bronze bushes etc to replace these things if yours have any play in them it would be worth doing whilst you have have things apart.

I would also replace the strange mud deflector collar and stupid strange shaped oil seal at the bottom of the drive shaft as it is quite likely that when you disturb this joint that you will get an oil leak from here that will empty your Diff of oil as you drive.

When I have some more time, I will try to write up a step by step "How to" to accompany the Worksop repair manual's rather sparse description of how to attempt this task.

I really would go though the parts book and have a look at how things are put together, long before actually attempting the task. Then buy all all the parts I think I would need so that they are to hand when you actually start the task.

John
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heinkeljb
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by heinkeljb »

I hope I can provide you with enough information to allow you to complete the task of lubricating your "rezepa" (as the Outboard Universal joint units are called in the repair manual) joints with the minimum of fuss.

I know the repair manual does not go in to very much detail in many of the tasks which you need to undertake on a Haflinger.

To start with I suggest you look in the parts book and get a good idea of all the items you might need to replace when you start taking things apart. Both Gary and I have made some mention of things already.

CLEAN THE HUB as best you can at this point.

1: Get the front wheels in the air safely. By this I mean make sure you can rock things quite hard without fear of the Haflinger falling on you or anyone else, falling and breaking something you hadn't planned on having to replace etc!
2: Take the appropriate front wheel off.
3: Put a piece of plastic under the brake master cylinder reservoir lid, so you can undo the brake pipe at the flexible hose connection on the hub you are taking off. This will help minimise the loss of brake fluid. You can also put a clamp on the flexible hose, but I don't like doing that as it can break the inside surface of the hose.
3A: Whilst not strictly necessary to do the job of replacing the grease in the Rezepa joint, the following steps will result in a more manageable unit to manhandle around whilst you attempt to undo the threaded ring on the Rezepa Joint.
4: Take the brake hub off.
5: Take the brake shoes off, - not strictly necessary at this point in time but just as easy to do now as later.
5A: Remove the relevant road spring. This can be done by either using spring compressors or b undoing the shock absorber / check strap mounting, allowing the swing arm to drop that bit lower.
5B: Remove the lower spring locating plate.
5C: Remove the relevant Steering tie rod ball joint using a suitable splitter.

6: Take the nut (item 49) off the cotter pin (item 47) and knock it out.
7: Using a length of threaded rod, (approx 15 / 20 cm long) Either 7mm or 8mm or whatever your particular top swivel pin / king pin's hole size is. Thread in it as deep in the the top swivel pin as you can get it. You may have to clean the hole out first. Now find a piece of tubing with an inside diameter of about 20mm, about 10cm long. Put this over the threaded rod. Now put a BIG THICK washer over the threaded rod so it rests on top of the piece of tubing. Now run a suitable nut down the threaded rod. Another couple of nuts locked together at the top of the threaded rod will allow you to hold the threaded rod stationary whilst you tighten up the nut at the washer. This should allow you to pull the top swivel pin out of it's bronze bush in the top bit of the hub.
8: Undo the two nuts under the bottom swivel pin.
9: DO NOT LOSE the bits that are inside the cap when you take it off!
10: Undo the split pin at the top of the swivel pin.
11: Undo the nut. The bottom of the swivel pin has two flats which will allow you to stop it turning whilst you undo the nut.
12: Remove the bottom swivel pin. That sound easy! I tried to use a lever but the only thing you can lever against is the outer cover of the Rezepa joint and if you bend that, then you have real problems! So, I suggest making a special tool. Basically it is two flat pieces of steel, suitably thick so they won't bend easily. one you place above the swivel pin and below the Rezepa joint. the second will be below the swivel pin and with enough distance below it to have a suitable piece of tubing with an ID that the swivel pin can fit inside it. Now with two long bolts, four holes in appropriate places, two nuts you can tighten the two side of the bars towards each other and this will push the swivel pin down into the piece of tubing. (I hope that makes sense).
13: Once the top and bottom swivel pins are out of the bronze bushes, you can pull on the hub and it will come clear of the drive shaft.
14: Now you need to split the two parts of the hub, if you haven't drained the oil already, now is the time.
15: Undo the 4 nuts holding the plate in place which is just below the Rezepa joint.
16: Remove the plate and make a note of how all the washers etc, are fitted as you take them out.
17: Undo all the remaining nuts that hold the two halve of the hub together. Tap them gently to get them to separate.
18: Now put the splined shaft in a vice with aluminium jaws so you don't damage the splines, do it up TIGHT.
19: Undo the nut holding the small cog on the shaft. Make a note of how things are put together.
20: Heat the plain bearing collar and then tap the half hub casting to take it off the shaft. Obviously don't drop the bits on the floor!!!
21: Using a suitable pair of slip joint pliers or other suitable tool, you can now undo the screwed on section of the Rezepa joint. If the cup bit rotates as well, then you will have to work out a way to hold that still whilst you undo the screw ring. Mine turned and I used a pair of Stilson's (Used by plumbers to hold pipes) to hold it, but it did chew up the surface a bit, so if you can think of a better way...
21A: With the threaded ring off the Rezepa joint, remove the oil seal from the end of the cup.
22: As you put the Rezepa joint to all it's extremes of movement you will see a half moon shape hole which you can move round 360 degrees.
23: Now put the whole Rezepa joint in a grease solvent bath. Petrol works, but I am sure there are other solvents as well. Just remember that if this is the first time the joint has been apart (or you have no idea when last this service was done), there will be DRIED out grease in there which will take a LONG time to soften and get washed out! The longer you can leave it soaking the more GUNK you will get out.
24: Once clean and dry, you can put new grease in - If you can get a grease gun with a suitable nozzle to go in the half moon shape, you will find it easier to get grease in to the joint. I did it all by hand - Mucky job, and you get air bubbles forming which prevent you from putting more in. A 50 cc medical syringe would work if you can get hold of one.
25: A new OIL seal and WIPER seal and screw the threaded ring back on and you are done!

Now all you have to do is put it all back together again! Most is the reverse of the above, but if you found issues whilst taking things apart, you'll have to deal with those in the appropriate way.

Don't rush things if it is the first time you have done this task, as it is too easy to damaged something critical and then have to wait whilst a replacement is sourced. Personally, I would buy and replace any and all plastic items, i.e. Oil seals, "O" rings and be prepared to replace / mend with speedie sleeves, the seal system into the drive shaft.

Good luck - it's not as daunting as the above sounds if you take it one step at a time.

Post if you have any questions or need help with some point or other and someone will provide you with the help you need, I am sure.

John

P.S. Whilst writing this "How To" I came up with an alternative method of achieving the same task without dismantling half the front end of a Haflinger to do it:- Whether it will work in practice, I don't know.

So my cunning plan is this:-
Armed with a supply of solvent and a supply of molybdenumsulphide grease you proceed thus.
1: Undo the threaded ring on the Rezepa joint whilst it is still in place on the Haflinger.
2: Pry out the oil seal from the cup
2: Place the a suitably large tray under the front wheel / hub (might be worth taking the wheel off the hub) to catch the solvent.
2: Using a suitable delivery system, syringe - high pressure pump - tube and funnel system, inject solvent into the Rezepa joint via the half moon access holes (Or in Gary's case the access holes on the side of the cup).
3: Collect the solvent in the tray you placed under the hub.
4: Reintroduce the solvent to the Rezepa joint, whilst turning the joint through all its possible range of movement.
5: When you can get clean solvent out of the Rezepa joint you can let it dry.
6: Using a syringe / grease gun with suitable end on it, re-introduce grease into the Rezepa joint whilst rotating and moving the whole joint in order to get grease into the cup via the half moon access holes.
7: Re-fit the oil seal, re-fit the wipers ring and the threaded ring,
8: Clean things up and refit wheel


Job Done - I hope!
Last edited by heinkeljb on Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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kerry460
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by kerry460 »

well written explanation .
kerry
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by AustHaflinger »

Yes well covered - highlights how much stuff you have to pull off to get at the CV.
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heinkeljb
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by heinkeljb »

Glad you like it, but it wasn't aimed at you!! You already know how to do it! :D

I hope it is clear enough for people to use when they want to attempt this task on their Haflingers. I know when I was presented with mine the first time, I looked at it and said; "what have I let my self in for buying this thing?! :geek:

Hopefully, taking each step slowly and having suitable tools, most people could achieve this task. It is when something does not play ball that it becomes difficult.

When the time comes I'll try doing a write up on how you put the hub back together dealing with setting the play in the bottom kingpin and the wheel shaft bearing.

John
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Yakov
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by Yakov »

I can't thank you enough for going through the time to explain it so thoroughly. I feel more confident about doing this now, and it is certain to help not only myself. Maybe if we gather all the useful material from the forum, we could make some kind of PDF addendum to the official repair manual?

I find it interesting that the explanation in the owners manual doesn't involve taking apart the hub to isolate the CV joint. The written description says to "clamp the wheel screws in a vise", which I'm assuming means that the hub goes in the vise, and you're supposed to pack the grease into the joint with the hub attached. However, the accompanying picture shows the CV joint all by itself being opened up. This is what confused me in the first place - the owners manual makes it seem more simple than what you guys are saying, and the picture muddles the text a little. I imagine this is more awkward, though less complicated, than disassembling the hub. Maybe it saves one from having to replace more seals that way?

I will report back on my results when I buy the seals and attempt this. Thanks again for your time and attention to details.
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heinkeljb
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by heinkeljb »

Yikes! :oops:

Forgot to add bits to my explanation..... I'll add them in RED text so you can see what was missing. Not an awful lot, but enough to make my "How to" inaccurate!

So have another look at it please.
And shame on you others for not spotting the missing bits! :lol:

John
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by AustHaflinger »

heinkeljb wrote:Glad you like it, but it wasn't aimed at you!! You already know how to do it! :D
Yes my hubs have been on and off so many times I could almost do it blindfolded. The hardest part is getting the top king pin out as there always seems to be problems getting the extraction bolt into the pin - always seems to want to pull out.
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by AustHaflinger »

Yakov - I agree with your issues with the manual. It is a shame that all the major Haflinger parts sellers did not get together and commission the writing of a better manual (Haynes?) and then sell through those suppliers.

Garry
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kerry460
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by kerry460 »

the only thing i would ad
a good strap wrench maybe preferable , so you dont damage the screw on cover .
or a worm drive hose clamp around it and tap it undone .
kerry

ps , i read it quickly , and when you know how it is easy to miss things that are obvious
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eniac
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by eniac »

Hey John,
very good explaination. I do that Job for three times now, but I dont know exactly how much grease I have to put in.
The last 2 pieces I have done a 90g tube of grease in it. But I don't know exectly if that is enough.
Stefan

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heinkeljb
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by heinkeljb »

The amount of grease to put in will always be a bone of contention! The volume of the cup is 350 ~ 400 CC with the Universal joint inside the available space would probably be down to about 100 CC.

If you fill it too much then when the Universal joint turns all that will happen is the grease will be forced out passed the oil seal and wiper seal. Too little and you might as well not put any in as it won't provide any lubrication.

So I think your 90g is about right. When I did mine, I just kept pushing more grease into the joint until all the happened when I moved the joint was that the grease was pushed out of the half moon holes. Then I put a small amount back in, put the oil seal in and the wiper seal. Put the threaded ring on and wiped the whole thing clean.

I like your idea of a Jubilee clip tightened on the ring to get it moving. I tried several different strap systems but none would grip well enough to allow me to move the ring so that's why I opted for the Slip Joint pliers.

John
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heinkeljb
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by heinkeljb »

Maybe we should get the top king pin design changed. Instead of having just a threaded hole in the top - if it protruded a bit more like an upside down TOP hat, so there was a gap under which you could get a lever to start it moving, or get a two / three leg puller on it, it would be easier to take out. It could also have two flats on it to allow you to turn it to align the cotter pin up more easily.

I think there is room between it and the spring locating disc to be able to do that.

John
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by AustHaflinger »

I just filled mine up as much as I could then rotated the CV around so excess came out - then put it back in and repeated a few times until no grease came out -seems to be the right amount as no grease has come since reassembly and use in the car.

Garry
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by kerry460 »

both ideas as to amount of grease sound good to me

kerry
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Yakov
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Re: Front drive joint lubrication

Post by Yakov »

While I wait for the seals, I started disassembly. Everything went smoothly except getting the old oil seals off. Neither the one in the CV cup, nor the one in the diff arm want to come out nicely. The CV cup one I scraped with a screwdriver and knife very carefully and it came off in little pieces, but I dont want to risk damaging the diff arm seal seat, so I just picked at it carefully with pliers. I came across a metal ring under the rubber - is there a metal ring in this seal, other than the circular spring?
I wouldn't be asking if I had the seal in hand, but I want to save time by getting everything ready, as picking away at old seals seems to take up lots of time and garage space is a contested luxury here in the winter.

How do you guys deal with stuck old seals? Is there a trick? Does heating help?
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