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 Post subject: Clunk in the Drivetrain
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:20 am 
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I drove my Haffie for 50km a week ago and no issues at all. Parked it up and went to use it today but as soon as I drove over 15kph there was a loud clonk coming from the drivetrain in time with wheel rotation - completely unexpected as there were no issues last time it was used.

The sound, sounds like it is coming from the front left wheel but as i have found out from experience in the past sounds from the rear can sound as if they are in the front.

The only options I can think of is a dud CV (but unlikely to be OK one minute and knocking the next) or one of the diff locks is partially locking/unlocking even though they are not selected.

So before I start pulling things apart - any ideas?

Thanks

Garry

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:17 pm 
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I would start with the basics and check all the oil levels in the hubs, then pull wheels and drums, then you can spin various wheels and clearly see CV's etc
Did you try engaging the diff locks and then disengaging just to cycle them?
Keep us posted on what you find - hoping it is something simple like a rat built a nest up in a swing arm or something

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:58 pm 
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Ok - jacked up the front and no issues so front drive and CVs are OK.

Jacked up the rear and right side is OK but the left side is locking at one spot with the diff lock unkocked. With the diff lock is fully locked there does not seem to be an issue.

I had a similar issue last year when the diff lock was on fully the diff lock in the diff was not fully locked and was disengaging and locking causing a similar clonk. I adjusted the linkages and all has been OK for over a year.

So it would seem that now the diff lock is not fully disengaging and is locking unlocking - though I have not used the diff lock for ages.

So I will proceed on the basis that the linkages are too tight and loosen off a little and see what happens - I believe in looking at the obvious things before looking for the more complex.

It would seem the adjustment of the difflock linkages are very sensitive as I also had a similar issue with the front when I first got my Haffie - the front has remained in adjustment but the rears seem a bit more delicate.

It is very hot and windy here and I will get cooked it I try to work on it out in the drive - after I clean my garage (another project going there) I will put it inside so I will get get hot and bothered but not frazzed. I have been meaning to buy a portable A/c for the garage so this might the reason I need.

Garry

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:07 am 
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Ok put the Haffie in the garage and removed the left rear hub - the wheel that was locking and shock horror the large hub gear has all but had the teeth removed with lots of metal from the hub sitting in the bottom of the hub. The drive hub gear looks OK with minimal wear so all the wear has been in the large gear.

Poor Pics - top gear first
Attachment:
75kph Top Gear.jpg
75kph Top Gear.jpg [ 783.9 KiB | Viewed 1308 times ]


Bottom gear - note no teeth on the left and other teeth all worn - (maybe need to zoom in to see better)
Attachment:
75kph Bottom Gear 1.jpg
75kph Bottom Gear 1.jpg [ 1.47 MiB | Viewed 1308 times ]


Attachment:
75kph Bottom Gear.jpg
75kph Bottom Gear.jpg [ 1.54 MiB | Viewed 1308 times ]


These are the brand new 75kph Prokschi gears that I put in in October last year - covered 1800km since with oil changes about 500km intervals. Oil was always dirty but no slivers of metal as there is now.

Obviously I now need to pull the other hubs to check how they are wearing.

So any ideas what would cause this catastrophic wear failure - noting it is only the bottom gear that is worn (though I would not use the top gear again). Even with the slivers of metal bearings seem OK but of course they will also have to be replaced.

So I need at least one (hopefully one) set of new rear (or good used) 75kph gears so if you have any - let me know. Note - the rears are different to the front.

Garry

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:46 am 
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Garry, I can't give any meaningful advice, but I feel your pain! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Good Luck ...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:22 am 
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Thanks Julian,

I pulled the other side and all is fine.

Likewise as in the earlier pics the drive gear on the failed hub is all OK and it turns at lot faster than the big hub gear s my only guess is that the big gear was not heat treated (hardened) correctly as both gears should have worn but only one did.

So I will start putting feelers out for just a rear hub set of gears.

You know it only takes about 20 mins to pull these apart but I know it takes hours to put it all back together :(

Garry


Attachments:
Drivers Side Main drive gear.jpg
Drivers Side Main drive gear.jpg [ 109.36 KiB | Viewed 1306 times ]
Drivers side Big Gear.jpg
Drivers side Big Gear.jpg [ 189.38 KiB | Viewed 1306 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Holy crap!!
This does not make me feel good as I purchased the same gears 2 months ago - makes me think twice before installing!!
Really sorry and unfortunately I have no clue what would cause something like that, so I am no use to you on that front
Are you going to contact Prokschi and show them your pictures? They may replace the gear??
Could the diff lock going partly on and off be the cause - if it was locking/unlocking while your were driving high speed and turning etc?
Dan

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Hi Dan - no the diff lock is fine - was this gear that was the cause of the wheel locking.

Yes I have contacted Prokschi - at this stage they are a bit dismayed as they said they have not had this issue before and asked about the installation. No further contact with them due to differences in time zones.

Assuming the gears were cast/machined correctly, the only thing that I can think of is that there is something wrong with the metallurgy of this particular gear. As far as I can tell, other than wheel bearing adjustment, there is no adjustment of these gears at all.

As I said the smaller top gear really does not show any abnormal wear and none of the gears in the other hubs show abnormal wear - just the one gear so is a bit of a mystery.

Garry

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:42 pm 
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As long as the bearings are not blue from lack of oil, I would suspect the gear was not properly heat treated or missed in the batch.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:20 am 
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Thanks Jim - bearing are all Ok but will obviously be replaced. At no stage was the oil level low - indeed the opposite oil ran out the filler hole when undone and everything inside was well covered in oil.

As none of the other cogs - including the one driving the damaged one are damaged I tend to agree that the damaged cog was not heat treated correctly resulting in the incorrect metallurgy.

Cheers

Garry

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:26 am 
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As this issue I am having is taking me away form other work I need to move the Haflinger out of the garage/workshop back down the back yard.

I initially thought that I could reassemble the hubs without the large cog and drive it in front wheel drive but the more I thought about it I realised it is the large cog that circulates the oil in the hub and without it, the top bearing on the driveshaft would be devoid of oil so I have decided to put the 70kph cogs back in the back that way I still be able to drive the vehicle.

I am not going to change the fronts so I will have to make sure I stay in 2wd but at least I will be able to use it.

This may take some time to fix as parts will hard to find. I have a couple of feelers out but I am not hopeful so I suspect I will have to get a new cog made which will be expensive.

As mentioned when I first put these 75kph cogs in a year ago the cogs are slightly thicker than the old ones but the bit that sits proud where the splines are don't stick out as much so the cog sits on the shaft in the correct position - but the outer edge of the cog does sit closer to the hub housing and as the damage has burred out the end of the teeth it has cut a grove in the aluminium housing but is a result of the damage.

Attachment:
75 Cog.jpg
75 Cog.jpg [ 814.18 KiB | Viewed 1253 times ]


Attachment:
70 and 75 cogs.jpg
70 and 75 cogs.jpg [ 974.66 KiB | Viewed 1253 times ]


Attachment:
groove.jpg
groove.jpg [ 1.25 MiB | Viewed 1253 times ]


Garry

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:32 am 
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This is the drive cog now removed - as you can see is basically Ok - there are some marks on the tooth surfaces bit that is to be expected with them slapping into eroded teeth on the other cog. Also this cog is turning 2.2 times faster than the big cog so if was the same hardness as the other cog it should have failed long ago. This also some support for the view that the other cog was not case hardened.

Attachment:
Drive Cog.jpg
Drive Cog.jpg [ 983.37 KiB | Viewed 1252 times ]


Oh - for some reason the axle on the other side popped out while I was removing this cog and the axle does not want to seem to go back in easily - is there a knack to getting it back into the diff without pulling stuff apart.

Attachment:
Axle.jpg
Axle.jpg [ 1.01 MiB | Viewed 1249 times ]


Garry

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:51 pm 
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What did Robert say???
I thought they would send you a replacement large gear do to the catastrophic nature of the failure.
It seems pretty clear by your photos that the damage was not caused by lack of oil, incorrect installation or misalignment issues.
Not really good marketing for their gears at this point and just wondering about the customer service.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:43 pm 
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G,,day .
tell me how many teeth on each gear .
i can look through mine .
kerry

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:11 am 
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Thanks Kerry - as mentioned in the wanted post - I guess both gears would be preferred as I assume that like crown and pinion gears they should be matched but if all else fails I would be happy with just the large gear.

This is the matched gears back together - no damage to the small one but major damage to the big one.
Attachment:
Matched Cogs.jpg
Matched Cogs.jpg [ 1.34 MiB | Viewed 1229 times ]


Small gear is 14 teeth, large gear is 31 teeth. Also the rears that I am after are thicker than the fronts - across the teeth, the rear gears are about 1 1/4" thick where the fronts are about 1 1/16" thick.

Cheers

Garry

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Last edited by garrycol on Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:12 am 
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Techmogogy wrote:
What did Robert say???
I thought they would send you a replacement large gear do to the catastrophic nature of the failure.
It seems pretty clear by your photos that the damage was not caused by lack of oil, incorrect installation or misalignment issues.
Not really good marketing for their gears at this point and just wondering about the customer service.


PM sent.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:10 am 
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garrycol wrote:
Oh - for some reason the axle on the other side popped out while I was removing this cog and the axle does not want to seem to go back in easily - is there a knack to getting it back into the diff without pulling stuff apart.

Attachment:
Axle.jpg


Garry


Been discussing this with Dan over on the Real 4x4 Forum. http://real4x4forums.com/PinzgauerBBS/v ... =7&t=10085

I suspected the issue was in the area of the diff where it drives the axle.

I went out and removed the rear right hand swing arm boot - these are much easier to remove than get back on.

And I could see the end of axle - mine does have the cube stones like those on the front axle - you can just see them in this pic taken from directly underneath.

Image

On the Real 4x4 forum Dan put up some useful pics which showed his rear axles that did not have the cube stones. Noting the relative size of the the yoke and the size of the actual driveshaft, clearly his are not deigned for stones but mine does have them with the of the stones being about the same size as the round protrusions on Dan's shafts.

So clearly there must be two styles of axle, one with the round protrusions that Dan has and mine with stones - I like Dan's better. Can someone please clarify.

Anyway - I had the typical issue with the square stone in that the flat sides are supposed to fit into the slots in the diff but as usual when the axle comes out too far, the stones twist 45 degrees so they will not longer fit - they still lock in but the axle cannot go home.

As the axle was generally in the correct position I was able to use a screwdriver to move the stones to the approximate position and the axle went home.

Sounds easy doesn't it but I can tell you I must have tried the mentioned process about 100 times before the planets all aligned and it all went in.

So the lesson for the day is do not let your axles slide out a bit and your stones will get misaligned and cause you no end of grief - unless of cause you have axles like Dan's where I am sure they will just pop straight back in.

Garry

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:56 am 
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Gary,

the picture "confirming" that there are no stones on the rear shafts is just showing two shafts without the stones mounted...
To the best of my knowledge, all Haflingers were fitted with the same type of square stones on both front and rear axles.


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Constantin


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:09 pm 
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Garry,
According to the parts manual, there is only one version of the front and rear differentials respectively. All used a pair of connecting blocks ("stones" P/N: 501.1.3474). One could certainly modify the original design by replacing the square blocks with either a slip-on collar/bushing/caged roller bearing of the appropriate I.D. and O.D. My only concern would be the potential localized peening of the parallel slot surfaces normally mated to the flat sided blocks.
Hope this helps.

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Jim Molloy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:21 pm 
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Just drove to my storage area and pulled out all my part bins
Found the rear stones
My bad - just wanted to clear it up so their is no misinformation out there!
Glad you got them realigned and the shaft back in!
Dan

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