Reverse gear.

[Tajman]

Now I have the Haflinger all back together, engine running and most control systems operating, I thought I would drive it out of the garage, to check clutch and brake operation etc. Unfortunately I could not engage reverse gear. All forward gears go in no problem.
Reverse is over to the left and push down against a spring , then push forward. When pushed forward there is no definite click into place.
I thought I had put all the components back correctly after the rebuild. The rod, the three bolts to the flange, the gear stick and it mechanism. There were no spacers on the three bolt flange, although I notice them in the spares book. Its the later type of 5 gear knob and base.
I did replace the spring that pulls the bottom of the gear stick over to the left. If anything that maybe a bit to strong, as the stick leans that way when not in use.
I will crawl underneath again and check that all is in correct place and maybe find someone to socially distance enough to try the gear stick whilst I'm down there.
Anyway, I pushed the vehicle out the garage and drove it in a few times and clutch and brakes seem Ok. Some things are going right!
Attached before and after pics
Cheers for now.
Jeff.

[ogdenenterprise]

Hi Jeff,
I adjusted the reverse gear actuation by disconnecting the 3 bolts on the flange near the gearbox tunnel, I then selected reverse manually with the short stub to the gear box tower. I then wrap an elastic strap with hooks to hold the gear lever in the reverse position, then reconnect the flanges with the 3 bolts. I have done this a few times and it works ok if you are on your own.

Dave

[Tajman]

So the saga of my reverse gear problems continue. I have now been underneath several times and disconnected the rod at the rear, checked any play in the connecting bolts etc. After which I tackled the front of the rod, disconnected it from the gear lever, checked there was a bush inside the hole for the 7mm bolt, then decided to remove the whole gear stick mechanism again. With that on the bench I took off the selector rail and realised somebody had been in there before. They had made up a locker and spring and the gear stick even seemed to be in the wrong plane.
Turning it through 180, I could see to 2 grooves(indents?) that the spring pushes the locker into and pushes the outer locker onto the selector rail. ( I presume) You can work all that out if you see the parts manual picture. On the main shaft of the gear lever are lots of grooves for circlips to be put in different places.. The drawing shows one spring on the lever at the top. My lever has another spring at the bottom. I am guessing the lever has to be positioned by the circlips and springs so that the grooves(indents) line up with the selector rail locker parts .
I ordered and received a new selector rail, thinking it may be worn. And also new lockers (2) and the small spring that goes in between. Having fitted that , they are so tight on the rail that I can not move the gear stick over the full way.
I need some more clues! are there any drawings or written stuff that may help me. There seems to be nothing in the repair manual. The picture in the parts book does not look the same .
I will hopefully try to see another Haflinger to see the set up.
Once again its, sleep on it. Tomorrow is another day. Jeff

[heinkeljb]

Hi Jeff,

I have not had to delve into that part of my Haf yet, so not much help. Did Mr. Nibblett come down to see you and loo at your Haf on behalf of the club? He would probably be able to give you a few pointers. The other people on here that might be able to help are members Woodman and Goatwerks - You could try sending them a PM to ask for help.

John

[Tajman]

Hi John. Firstly, my Haflinger was made on the cusp of MK2 manufacture, so it has several Mk1 parts "used up " on it. So this is one of the cases. The gear lever mechanism is mainly Mk1 and also bodged by a previous owner. I only had Mk2 parts pictures so it baffled me for a while, then when Dale at Haflinger Technik sent me the Mk 1 parts picture, It started to become clearer. I have ordered some bits now that hopefully should solve the mysteries.I will post the results.
A more local guy from the club came to see the vehicle with regard to me getting it sorted for a date related registration with the DVLA. That went well. I am waiting for the paper work from the club. In the mean time it was suggested that I apply for a NOVA (Notification of vehicle arrival) 1 cert from HMRC. DVLA also requested that. Can't understand the requirements for that. On the build cert it clearly says supplied to Ryders of Liverpool in 1967.
The original number plates and documents have long gone. I have filled out a NOVA form on line but struggle to make sense of it. Forms do my head in.
Jeff.

[heinkeljb]

Hi Jeff,

I have just had a quick look at the form C384 which I think is the relevant NOVA form. Seems like the requirement for filling in this form is something relatively new to DVLA and presumably is part of the BREXIT issue. Anyway, other than what you put in the boxes relating to the importer where you would put Ryders of Liverpool - I presume they have long since disappeared. The rest seems to be quite straight forward - Either actual information as you know the chassis number/ engine size. Other boxes like registration just get N/A stuck in them.
I would dispute any requirement from DVLA or from HMRC to pay ANY Duties (VAT or Customs) on it as it has never left the country after it's importation into the UK by Ryders in 1967 and they would have paid any duties required.

The form is totally about money! The rules (made by "Government") are that all duties need to be paid before a vehicle can be registered - Well, all duties have been paid - back in 1967 - go look on your records..... Oh, you don't have records from 1967 - what a pity, now you can't prove that the duties were NOT paid - I say that they have been paid and you (DVLA, HMRC) now need to prove they haven't. Let get a court to decide. At which point you can claim damages and you might even end up with a "Free Haflinger" if you claim for the cost of your rebuild and have all the receipts.

Well, That's how I would handle it.

Let us know how it goes.

John

[Tajman]

Phew! Nothing like letting off a bit of Steam. Totally with you on that one.
But--- after only applying on line with the form to HMRC (a couple of days ago, today i received a phone call from a pleasant lady at HMRC who asked a couple of questions and then said she would e mail me a request for further information. That she did straight away. Luckily I had it all to hand.
Proof of Date, I have the Wagenstammkarte.
Photo of Chassis/Vin number.
Photo of Vehicle in question.
I have sent all those plus more information including Photo advert evidence of Ryders Autoservice who are at the top of the build cert as the Agent.
I also translated the Wagenstammkarte-Wagon Master Card./Build Certificate.
All details on that cert correspond to my Haflinger, even the colour of the seats, wheels and body.
She did mention that until I received the NOVA cert, I would not be able to get the vehicle registered with the DVLA.
I feel I have done the best I can. All credit though the reply from HMRC was quick and factual.
Watch this space.
Jeff.

[heinkeljb]

Well done - As long as you were able to provide all that HMRC want, then DVLA don't have a leg to stand on trying to refuse to give it a registration mark. It will be an age related one with a stipulation that it can not be transferred, that stops the dealers from making money out of old registration numbers.
Hopefully, lock down will easy to the point where "normal" travel is allowed. I'll drive over in Lurch so you can see another Haf in the flesh.

John

[Tajman]

Thank you John, where do I post with the results of the continuing saga of the registration? Maybe someone is interested.
With regard to the gear shift lever mechanism, I went to Southampton and visited Darren with his early Austria Army Haflinger Mk1.
We went through the differences between the MK1 and Mk2 mechanisms and compared with his. I realise I have bits of both and with the addition of some home made bits, making it a right dogs breakfast. Also found I was missing another part, so straight on to Dale at Haflinger Technik to get that added to my order. Hopefully when that order arrives I will be able to put the gear lever back together, then fit it and see if I can get it into reverse gear, which was the original problem. Quite a few parts are common to both versions.
I will include some pictures in my next post.
Jeff
PS. I've been thinking of fitting tracks, what do you think? --Apart from lock-down madness!!

[heinkeljb]

Hi Jeff,

I would start a new thread under "Haflinger" regarding your trials and tribulations of getting your Haf registered for the road.

Sounds like your gear lever system has been "butchered" in the past when there were fewer original / remanufactured parts. Tracks would be a very nice but expensive addition to a Haflinger. It would make travel over sloppy mud or snow easier, but I don't think you will see much snow unless you go on holiday with your Haflinger to somewhere that is known for snow! Mud I am sure you can find!

John

[Tajman]

Thanks. I wasn't that serious about tracks. I have managed to get the gear lever mechanism working and it is selecting reverse, not that smoothly but at least I know that the gearbox reverse is working. Using a variety of spares acquired from Haflinger Technik, including MK1 and MK2 bits I have been able to get the full range of gears.
The photos show the mechanism in bits with two lots of Nipple (lockers) and small internal springs. One set is in the selector fitting. They differ in the way that the later model has a more rounded point and a different tension spring. Allowing them to locate more readily in the detent shown on the lever and on the selector rail "steps" The lever has 2 detents (grooves) bottom one for the location of fwd gears and the top one for the reverse gear, so when you push down against the spring on the lever, to select reverse, the nipple/lockers slot into that detent. Then of course you move the lever over to the left where the outer nipple travels down the selector rail to the bottom, then push the lever forward, it should click into reverse.
For Mk1 and 2 there are 2 slighty different selector rails, one a bit meatier than the other. My Fulcrum bolt (that has the gear lever running through it and the 2 x nipples and small spring, is the same for both models. Mine was worn after home made parts had been fitted.
Mk 1 lever is fitted with a large spring at the top to enable the push down of reverse gear to return and a large spring at the bottom, which I am not sure about, but Mk2 does not have that bottom spring.
Well this may be of help to someone. For sure it would have helped me, but then I do have a Haflinger built in 1967 just as the MK1 s finished and the Mk2 began , so Steyr Puch obviously used up some MK1 bits on my Mk 2 Haffy.
Jeff

[heinkeljb]

Hi Jeff,

Well done for getting it sorted. I do know that it very sensitive on the rubber disc angle right next to the gearbox tower. Very small changes in the angle there make a difference to how the reverse gear selection works. So maybe re-visit that end now you have the gear lever sorted out.

John

[Tajman]

Thanks. I have rebuilt the gear lever mechanism and fitted as per spec. But I still can not get reverse. I disconnected again and can get reverse by moving the long rod underneath. So I know its there. I did connect the gear lever whilst in reverse but could not select it back again. I have tried several combinations of shims at the flange where the rod joins the upper gearbox housing.
Always all the forward gears are selectable so thats no problem. So I am thinking that there is wear in the UJ, connecting pins, inside the upper gear housing. I can not see or find any rubber disc angle that you mention John nor on the parts diagram I have. I see that it is tight under the deck to remove the four M6 bolts and take off the cover to access the UJ and bits in there. Is it possible? Or is it going to be a summer with no reverse and a winter job of getting the deck off? I am sure I have seen a photo on the forum of the workings in the upper housing exposed with the top off, but can't find it now.
So its another Haflinger quandary. I only have myself to blame, as a newby I went ahead with the rebuild with out checking the workings in the upper gear housing before I put on the deck.
Jeff.
Luckily Haffys are quite light to push backwards, but I would like to resolve the problem.

[AustHaflinger]

I am sorry but I am no help at all as I have not had a gearbox or reverse issue. The closest is when I tried to investigate why my reverse light would not work - on opening the top gearbox selector housing I found the switch mechanism was not there when for my year it should have been (the genuine reverse light is there at the back).

So in one way I am glad you are putting all this as when I have issues in the future I will have your posts to refer too.

Good luck with it.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Jeff,

In the parts book, find page 154 (or somewhere near that page number. Section 8 20/0. The exploded part drawing shows the gear lever in the cab and the end which joins the gearbox tower.

Parts 30/31/32/33 are the part I am talking about. Might not have a rubber disc, but may have some shims between the two parts, one end from the gear lever, the other from the gearbox tower.

What you could try is disconnect all the bots and remove the shims. Line everything up with out them. Now get some one to put the gear lever into reverse, whilst you watch what happens to the disc end under the platform. Now try and move the disc connected the gearbox tower to actually get reverse which you say is there.
Now measure the gap between the two discs and fill with the appropriate number of shims, put the bolts in and do them up. Make a line across all the disc as a reference line.

Move gear lever to the other gears watching what happens under the platform. See if you can get revers again. Due to wear in ALL the joints, you might find you have to "tweak" the position / angle of that disc joint to get reverse reliably. As I said earlier, I know VERY small adjustments there are needed to make things work smoothly. Using you reference line you should now be able to see in which direction you need to make the twist in order to get reverse.

John

[Tajman]

Ok thanks John,
There are in fact metal shims. The ones on the diagram are 1.5 mm. There was one in place initially. I removed that and connected up, no difference.
The rod goes backwards when going into reverse , IE , that is the gear lever goes forward-- after being pushed down and moved to the left. So with that in mind I thought more shims should take up play. So I added to the 1.5mm shim another one I made up about 2mm. No difference. The problem seems to be the rod needs to be "twisted upwards" then back to achieve reverse. All this doing solo is difficult. I am going to have another look at John's suggestions and maybe rig up some shock cord (elastic) and hooks and a jubilee clip around the rod at the rear to simulate the reverse gear position.
Maybe that will give me a glue to what needs adjusting. A bit like Dave's suggestion earlier in this post.
Jeff.

[gren_t]

Jeff, have you resolved the issue with reverse as I am having exactly the same issue selecting reverse and am about to lift the platform to get into the tower.
I've tried various shims and tweeking the 3 hole flange from the tower left and right to no avail.

Gren

[ogdenenterprise]

Hi gren_t,
When I have previously set the linkage up, I have completly disconnected the 3 bolt flange on the gear rod and manually selected reverse with the short stub of the 3 bolt rod then confirm it is fully engaged in gear. I then put the gear lever in the reverse position and use a elastic strap with hooks at each end to hold it in position.
I then reconnect the 2, 3 bolt flanges and lock them in position.you can add or remove the shims at the flange as required, Ive done this 3 times and it works ok for me.
Just something else to try before you start removing the body.

Dave

[gren_t]

Hi Dave, I've tried something similar without success, however I'll try it again while holding the flange in position.
cheers.

[Anrw]

Hello

A quick question on the reverse gear subject. I have the reverse and crawler gear very difficult/impossible to engage problem.

Before delving deeper I had planned to check the action and shimming of the gate/linkage at the gear lever end. Is it front underrshield off and release the bolt (item 28 {900.1013} in the parts manual)? Then does the whole gearlever and turret assembly lift out for examination and rebuild on the bench or does it need to be stripped in situ?

Thanks