Front Hubs

[AustHaflinger]

Another dummy question - gate crashing on John's thread but it may be relevant to him as well.

When I pulled my front hub down I did not take the actual shaft that drives the wheel hub out as there did not seem to be relevant to my issue. I assumed that the wheel bearings in the Haffie were lubricated by the hub oil no real reason other it would seem logical and my Landrover 101 has wheel bearing lubricated by the diff oil so I had this mind set.

On looking at the lubrication chart to see what oil I need to buy for the hubs, diff and engine I notice it has the grease specification for the wheel bearings so they are clearly greased and looking at the parts diagram I can see the oil seal that separates the hub oil from the bearing grease.

Having just put all this back together I am not pulling it out again as the wheel bearings were fine and I did not dismantle that area so the grease is still in there.

So a simple question - has anyone modified their hubs by removing this separating oil seal so that the wheel bearings are lubed by the oil rather than grease. This is a common modification on Land rovers where the oil seal at the end of the axle housing is removed to allow diff oil in to lubricate the wheel bearings which then rarely fail - the outer hub oil seal and gaskets need to be in good condition but any failure there is obvious from oil weeps or leaks.

Thanks

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Thanks Garry!

I really need to take the hubs apart again! I did put some grease in mine when putting them together, but not as much as i would have done if i had realized that they were sealed off from the hub oil!

As for your question re: Items 62, 55 and 57 - these actually take up the play in the bottom swivel pin... the fact the washer (55) comes in different thicknesses betrays that fact. the nut on the top locks the pin to the swing arm hole. The manual tells you to put the pin in place, choose a washer of the appropriate thickness so that when the end cover is in place, you can turn the pin by hand but there is no end float. (Each lower swivel pin when made has a slightly different depth of hole machined in it purely because of machine tool wear / error)
I think it is well more complicated then it needs to be, most would simply use the torque on the nut to set end float - but you are taking Haflinger here!

John

[AustHaflinger]

As for your question re: Items 62, 55 and 57 - these actually take up the play in the bottom swivel pin... the fact the washer (55) comes in different thicknesses betrays that fact. the nut on the top locks the pin to the swing arm hole. The manual tells you to put the pin in place, choose a washer of the appropriate thickness so that when the end cover is in place, you can turn the pin by hand but there is no end float. (Each lower swivel pin when made has a slightly different depth of hole machined in it purely because of machine tool wear / error)

I agree that is what it says but as soon as you tighten up the castle nut it overrides the shim etc at the bottom - in my view you could leave the three parts out and would make no difference to the action of the hub - now if there was a shim between bottom of the lower swivel pin and the hub and you torqued it up on this shim via the castle nut I could understand that.

Oh well I put mine back as it was so we will see what happens.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

The swivel pin is supposed to have a shoulder on it at the base of the threads. This is supposed to lock against the swing arm. That means the length of the part which fits inside the bronze bush should move up and down by a fraction. The variable thickness washer is supposed to take up that play. Given that I have not spent my time measuring the parts I can not say if they have been machined to accepted tolerance - I can only hope that they have!

I do agree that it really is not a very well designed / thought out bit - but no doubt the purests who believe the Haflinger design can have no badly thought out design will claim it is a good technological fix to the issue. Well, I for one would have thought that some thing made for "Army" use would have been made as simply and cheaply as possible.... This is a piece of engineering over kill for a king pin / swivel pin system.

I have like you, just followed the layout and tried to do as the book requests.

John

[walderse]

John,
Your comments about either poorly engineered or over-engineered details of the Haflinger seem to fall in line with those made by the US Army in 1962.

“Accession Number : AD0283254

Title : EVALUATION OF TRUCK, 1/2-TON, 4X4, HAFLINGER (AUSTRIAN)

Corporate Author : ARMY ARMOR BOARD FORT KNOX KY

Report Date : 10 JUL 1962

Pagination or Media Count : 1

Abstract : Test experience with the Haflinger generally parallels that previously encountered with other foreign vehicles. From a performance standpoint, the vehicles are equal to and, in some areas, exceed comparable US vehicles. From the standpoint of the durability and reliability required of utility vehicles they are unacceptable. It must also be recognized that their use would mean the addition of nonstandard parts, special tools, and much more comprehensive maintenance publications then are normally available. The principal advantages of the Haflinger over the M274 lie in its easier handling, smoother ride, and slightly greater speed. These features are achieved at the cost of a heavier, more sophisticated vehicle. It is questionable whether such design features would be justified in an austere, special-purpose vehicle such as the M274. (Author)

Descriptors : *PASSENGER VEHICLES, CARGO VEHICLES, FUEL CONSUMPTION, MAINTENANCE, RELIABILITY

Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE”

In contrast, June and July of 1962 also saw the release of a seventeen page two part article on the Haflinger published in the British professional trade journal AUTOMOBILE ENGINEER. The thorough treatise extolled the engineering genius utilized in the design and execution of the Austrian offering. Perfect and without fault? No. Far superior to anything in its class at the time? I find no evidence to warrant any conclusion to the contrary.

Even the most staunch purist must admit that Steyr-Puch believed in product improvement. We know of both Series 1 and Series 2 vehicles with refinements being made as the production progressed. We have seen 6x6 trucks and the factory prototype four cylinder boxer motor. Had production continued into Series 3, Series 4 and beyond, we might have seen AluZn-treated metal tubs, dual circuit disc brakes, higher top speeds and perhaps a fast spinning air cooled turbo-diesel motor bringing up the rear.

The Haflingers will continue to survive as long as we continue to embrace the challenges they provide and enjoy putting forth the effort. John Muir’s words about keeping one’s Volkswagen alive "Come to kindly terms with your ass, for it bears you." certainly hold true with the Haflingers as well.

Keep up the good work.

Take care.

Jim Molloy
Waldersee Farm
http://www.northwestmogfest.com

[AustHaflinger]

I am thinking a well known saying should be changed - with respect to how things are designed, no longer should we say "the right way. the wrong way and the British way" it should be "the right way, the wrong way and the Austrian way".

Having thought I was winning on the work I am doing I am now thinking that pushing my Haffie over a cliff might be a good idea.

But tomorrow (it is early evening here) all will be good and the little truck will be back in my good books.

garry

[heinkeljb]

Every vehicle I have owned has had some idiosyncratic design feature(s) - If they didn't then all vehicles would be the same!
I just appears that some things were done the way they are just because they "could" be done that way, not because that was the "best" way to do things.

I like the method of holding the springs in place and the separate shock absorber - coil overs can be a real pain to deal with. I like the dropped hubs, it's a good way to get extra ground clearance with small cheap tyres, - Do early VW buses with them have the same issues / design?

How was it put - the devil is in the detail?

John

[AustHaflinger]

For the past month or so the front wheels have been off and the body on jack stands under the front body. While working on my drivers side hub the suspension check strap was off while the work was being done, the other side still had the check strap on.

Having completed the drivers side hub today I then shifted my attention to the other side where it needs a new shock absorber installed. hub oil changed and greasing. While greasing the speedo take-off I spotted this



This was not there when I started and I assumed (we all know what happens when you assume) that with the check strap still on there would be no issues. Clearly that small amount of drop in the suspension is too much for an old boot. I rotated the other side boot 90 degrees so the load is now being taken in another area as the axle moves up and down.

I have a new unused split boot that I can put on - not having used one of these before is there anything special I have to look out for?

Thanks

Garry

[heinkeljb]

If I understand the pretty "little" diagram in the parts book, it seems to suggest you put the split boot on with the "split" horizontal to the ground on the "front" side of the shaft. Does make it slightly awkward to do up, but not impossible.

Obviously much easier to have the split below, but presumably that allows oil to collect along the split and possibly seep out along with the possibility that you would catch it on something as you drove over it. Also the flexing of the boot as the suspension goes up and down means that above and below are out because the movement will tend to open the joint.

I had exactly the same problem.... Again probably an old boot that had gone stiff and just couldn't take the strain!

John

[AustHaflinger]

I didn't see that little diagram but the boot instructions did have the diagram. The actual instructions are a bit hard to follow as they are in German. Putting the boot on was a bit fiddly with oily hands - there are no washers to spread the load around the two center nuts and bolts so it would not surprise me if they pull through the rubber over time.

In doing this work I also found that the nearside suspension check strap was almost broken through - only two strands left holding it on. I have a new one that I got to replace a broken rear one so it is now going on the front and I will make a temporary repair to the damaged check strap and put it on the rear until I get another one.

Wheels go back on the front tomorrow and off the jack stands - they then get moved to the rear and I look for things at the back - at least one check strap, maybe one other boot and engine oil leaks (hopefully from the oil filter).

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Oi! Your not allowed to finish before me!! I got work started before you - I should finish before you!!!

I am still waiting for the top plate so can't put the spring back together, and also the top fulcrum pin carrier / diff side plate holder (what ever that aluminium casting is called). It will be easier to undo the nuts holding it in place without the spring in the way.

Like me, discovering things which you didn't notice when you were taking it apart! Whilst I am waiting, I thought I would use some of that iron on fabric repairs stuff on the bottom edges of my doors as they have rotted through and will really need replacing but as a temporary repair it seems to work.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Wheels go back on the front tomorrow and off the jack stands - they then get moved to the rear and I look for things at the back - at least one check strap, maybe one other boot and engine oil leaks (hopefully from the oil filter).

Garry

Hmm - both rear oil seal boots collapsed when I touched them (one had been repaired with silastic), and one of the check straps did not have a bush on the top. Also I do not have an engine choke cable - not an issue at the moment as it is still 30 C here but winter here and in the nearby mountains gets down to -10 C so may be an issue then.

Parts ordered from Haflinger technik.

Just a side question on this supplier - I read most of you deal with Dale but all my dealings have been with John Hamilton on his direct email - am I using the right person or should I be using Dale? does he have a direct email or the generic parts email.

Thanks

Garry

[heinkeljb]

I get emails from both, I send requests to Dale@.... I get items posted by either.

Shame about the CV boots. I suppose it is only to be expected after 30 years of service even if most of that time has been sitting still!

John

[heinkeljb]

Gary,

I have been thinking about the items at the bottom of the front hub, the plate, ball bearing and top cup / washer.

The reason they are there is to take up any free play and prevent the steel of the swing arm from wearing the aluminium of the hub arms. If you took those item out of the equation, then when the weight of the vehicle is transmitted down the swing arm, the bottom surfaces of the swivel pin housings would rest on the aluminium arms of the hubs. The bottom swivel pin has a shoulder on it which being steel would wear the bronze bush on that surface. The rubber washer and metal shield washer in between the lower swing arm and the lower hub arm would wear pretty quickly and you would end up with a lot of movement there.
The ball bearing allows the system to turn on a very small contact point, but being very hard will no wear very quickly.

So the lateral thrust of turning / driving is taken by the bronze bush and the vertical thrust is taken by the ball bearing / cups and shim.

(I hope I explained that in an understandably way....) What is in the head does not always come out in written text very well.

John

[AustHaflinger]

I am sure you are right - why else put it there (and I did leave all mine in) - however I cannot stop feeling all the weight is taken by the castle nut once torqued up. The only way I can see the ball bearing etc keeping the kingpin up there is if the castle nut is not supposed to be torqued right up.

Cheers

Garry

[heinkeljb]

The thread on the castle nut to the shoulder is fixed in the arm of swing arm. The hub, (with nothing else attaching it) would hang down and the bronze bush would rub on the bottom lip of the swivel pin. That obviously is a very small surface and one which the steel of the swivel pin would win. So to lift it off that lip you have the ball bearing affair.

John

[heinkeljb]

Hey everyone,

I am on the last stretch of putting the front hubs / brakes etc back on my Hafi. Here comes the question:-

How much oil do the front hubs hold?

Yes, I know there is a fill hole and it is the level to which you fill the hubs. My Hafi is on a slope and I have no where near by which is level to be able to do that task easily. Plus the fact that they are totally dry after the rebuild means I ought to put some oil in first.

Also will have to top up the front diff as I know some oil leaked out during the removal of one of the hubs. I don't think much came out so that can wait until I can drive it around a bit and find a nice level spot where I can check levels.

John

[HaffyHunter]

Hi John,
The Repair Instructions manual page 0-4 gives the fluid capacities as follows:

Gearbox with Rear Axle (Diff): 2.25 litre Gear Oil
Front Axle (Diff): 1.15 litre Gear Oil
Wheel Drive Casings (Hubs): 0.15 litre Gear Oil
Backbone Tube: 0.5 litre Gear Oil
Sump (Motor Crankcase): 2 litre Motor Oil
Air Cleaner: 0.3 litre Motor Oil
Steering Gear: 0.2 litre Gear Oil
Brake System: 0.25 litre Brake Fluid
Petrol Tank: 33 litre

Cheers,
Steve

[heinkeljb]

Thanks Steve,

Didn't think to look in the "Book" - DOH!

It is now back on its own 4 wheels - which I notice have gone down a bit. They are the original type 165 x 12 - What pressure do people run them at? I think they currently have about 1 bar in them.

Brakes need tweaking as it appears the rear left hand side wheel drags a bit more than the others.

Several steps closer to it being legally "on the road".

Does any one know which direction the speedometer cable rotates? In the months that it has been stilling still, the speedo no longer registers speed. (This is the one step back I suppose!)

John

[Julian B]

From memory the Owners Handbook states something like 20-24psi, but I will check in the morning if that is not too late.