Front Hubs

[heinkeljb]

Garry,

The smooth collar just below the threads on that shaft is a push fit. Heat it carefully and you should be able to slide it off. Then the toothed gear slides off the splines on the shaft. Carefully supported, you can knock the shaft through the bearing.
There is an Oil seal which needs replacing if you have an oil leak, but you might find that the surface it seals on is damaged which is why you have the leak.

John

[heinkeljb]

Can't do any work on my hubs as I have to work outside and it's B****y snowing! I had hoped to have the Haflinger roadworthy to be able to use it in the snow!

Oh well, It will get fixed eventually! In the meant time I will just have to continue struggling with the snow in my Smart ForTwo. Actually it is quite good in the snow for all that it has a very short wheel base, has a "know it all" Clutch / gearbox system. Traction control which kill power rather than let you add power...

John

[AustHaflinger]

I have had the opposite problem - has been up to and over 40°C most of this month so too hot to work outside - working on the hubs on the dining room table is not a good idea. Was only 33 today so managed to dissemble the hub today - put in a new wheel bearing seal and need to torque up the castle nut on that shaft and put the split pin back in. I cannot find what torque the castle nut on this lower shaft is supposed to be.

I still cannot see where the original oil leak was coming from so I am going to also replace the oil seal on the top input shaft that has the CV on it.

I appreciate the help you have provided and hope you get your "little truck" up and running soon.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Go to the Yahoo group "keeping your Haflinger alive" and in the file section are some torque tables. (I bought a workshop repair manual with the sole intention of having those torque tables only to discover they are missing from that manual as well as the first one I bought!)

The only problem is they are listed in a not currently used standard.

So, the top Rzeppa joint castle nut is ~ 80 lbsf and the bottom hub shaft one is ~116lbsf (or 108nm and 157nm)

There are various web site which can do the conversion for you so when you need the other numbers you can convert them.

I'll brave the snow and post a picture in the random pics thread later.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks John. I must admit my bedtime reading was going to be reading your hub posts on the yahoo site.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

They are all to do with cleaning the old grease out of the Rzeppa joint - turns out you just have to wash / soak them in petrol. No other way to get in to be able to scrape the old gone solid, not removed last time type gunk!

The referenced pdf shows how one person took the metal cup with the threads on it off (although there is no mention of that) - cut a slot in the remain half cup and fitted a rubber gaiter instead.

There are several things to consider:-

The rubber gaiter is not as durable in off road conditions i.e. could get snagged.
The cutting of slot could weaken the cup.
Finding a suitable gaiter might be difficult.
The clamp clip used would have to be low profile in order to have clearance i.e. no jubilee clip.

All in all, I have stuck with the original stuff and just hoped I have managed to clean out enough of the old grease.

John

[heinkeljb]

I should have bought every replaceable item for the front hubs before I started taking them apart!

For those that haven't followed the saga on the Yahoo group sites and have just found this site I'll put the short story next:

Bought a 1973 Haflinger. It seemed good bar a couple of things - Brakes stopped working between me seeing it and me collecting it. Engine stopped starting between me seeing it and me collecting it! Should have known I was in for major work at that point, but I thought I might get away with only having to sort out a few silly problems.
Wrong!
Brakes didn't work because master cylinder had seized - Replaced easily enough only to find atleast 2 wheel cylinders were leaking - So new wheel cylinders all round and whilst I am there, new brake shoes all round.
Sorting out the non-starting engine involved new new points, new plugs - it ran for couple of minutes but then died. Fuel? No getting fuel, check ignition system again. Discover a bit of HT lead behind the crank pulley wheel (hidden) has been eaten down to the core by mouse or something similar! New HT leads and engine runs - only now it is pouring oil out like a tap. Replace the nearside cylinder head oil return seal on the crank case, sorted!

Take it for an MOT - fail on several things including missing split pins. Those should be easy I thought. Discover a castle nut missing a few crenelations. Replaced. How to get to the split pins on the top of the rear shock absorbers. I have the heat exchangers in the way. Luckily my hands are small enough and with long nose pliers get split pins in place.
Brakes not up to MOT standard so decide as I have replaced master cylinder, wheel cylinders and brake shoes the only other thing to change is the flexible hoses! So new ones fitted - now I have to remove the rear springs to get to them. Actually that easy once I had discovered that removing the springs was easy - should have done that and the split pins would have been easy as well!

Now, when I was driving home from the MOT the drivers side front hub decided to spray the inside of the wheel with oil. So I bought all the bits needed to do the common leaks on the hubs. Also needed to do Swivel pins and the steering idler bushes as they had play in them that the MOT man didn't like. The steering idler bushes are blind ones for all that there is a hole all the way through. That caught me out and I made a bit of a pigs ear getting them out and new ones fitted but managed it in the end.

As the front hub was leaking I though the others couldn't be far behind so I planned on replacing seals in both front hubs whilst fitting new swivel pins and bushes. Tackled the leaking hub first, getting the top swivel pin out was a real mare of a job. Taking it apart (undoing tight nuts), proved chalanging. Getting the old grease out of the Rzeppa joint also involved a fair amount of effort. As you would expect, had to get a few other bits I hadn't thought I would need. Other than time which , for me is limited to evenings and weekends but outside so with the bad weather I haven't managed much. Finally got sufficient bits, time and put that hub back together.
Now to tackle the nearside front hub. If everything on the offside hub had been difficult, partly because I have never worked on a Haflinger before and for reasons explained above, you would have thought the second hub would be easy. Wrong!

All the nuts which were tight on the first hub were tighter on the second. Then I discover that the bearings are damaged, the threaded ring on the Rzeppa joint won't come undone because the cup just rotates on the shaft. Using Stilsons to hold it results in a chewed up surface. The top swivel pin bush does not want to come out - have to resort to the hacksaw and cut to slots which takes forever as you can only go back and forth 3cms or so.

Now I have to order new bearings and sundry other bits like a couple more "o" rings.

Hope I have't bored you all to much with this epistle. More to come when I get the bearings no doubt and start putting this hub back together.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Don't forget the oil seal at the outboard end of the swing arms - thought I had a hub leak but it was diff oil coming out of the end of the swing arm to the inside of the hub.

Good luck with it - I am about to start putting my hub back together and do the king pins.

But first I need to take the steering out and repair some rust under it.

Garry

[heinkeljb]

I forgot to mention that when I saw the state of the collars you mention, I bought new ones as they were too damaged to be fixable using speedi sleves (without lots of work). As a matter of course, having replaced the collars I replaced the oil seal that seals on them as that would have been worn running on the chewed up surface of the damaged collars.

So all in all, I have basically refurbished both front hubs (and spent a fortune), all because of some play in the swivel pins and an oil leak!

Oh well, maybe I will get to enjoy driving it this year!

John

[AustHaflinger]

So all in all, I have basically refurbished both front hubs (and spent a fortune), all because of some play in the swivel pins and an oil leak!

I feel your pain having just paid for a whole bunch of parts including those swivel pins etc - is not a good design as there appears nothing to take up the wear.

I hope all goes well with your hubs and may the leaks stay away.

Garry

[pathfinder700ap]

Hi there,

I have also made the experience that both pins and bushings are worn, BUT I have also seen Haflingers, where bushings and pins are still fine after many years of usage, because they were apparently greased every now and then...

Regards,
Constantin

[heinkeljb]

Having received no service history with my one, and at 26500 miles I can only assume that NO maintenance has ever been carried out on it after the first owners. I have no way to know at what mileage the first owners sold it on so I am working on the assumption that it has had repairs but no routine maintenance over it life.
I mean, why should there be odd split pins missing? At some point in its life the rear hand brake pivot pins were welded in place. The hot air heating system from engine bay to the heat exchangers was full of leaves, maybe that was where the mouse that ate the HT lead lived?
John

[AustHaflinger]

Hi there,

I have also made the experience that both pins and bushings are worn, BUT I have also seen Haflingers, where bushings and pins are still fine after many years of usage, because they were apparently greased every now and then...

Regards,
Constantin

You are spot on - they will be included on my maintenance schedule to be done every couple of thousand km.

[heinkeljb]

I have finally managed to get round to dismantling the passenger side hub only to discover that all the bearings are damaged and show signs of rust and surface hardening damage.
So am now waiting for replacement bearings.

I think who ever took the hubs apart last did not have an exploded parts diagram or take notes during dismantling as there appears to be an extra washer / shim in between the oil seal and bearing on the rzeppa shaft where it goes into the hub.

So i will have to double check everything when I put it back together again.

John

[heinkeljb]

Last weekend there was a reasonable day, so on with the passenger side hub. I had to use the dreaded hacksaw to get the top swivel pin bush out of the casting. The drivers side one came out with no problem using my new tool. A blind bush expanding extractor with a slide hammer. I thought it would equally easy on the passenger side - the tool turned into a "one hit wonder"!! I think the reason is that the bush ended too near the bottom of the hole, so the expanding extractors feet could not get beyond the bush. That means that when you tighten it up all it is doing is expanding the bush out towards the housing and making it more difficult to move!

So long time later, the bush was out. All the bearings removed casings cleaned etc. Now I had a friend staying who is also a competent DIY mechanic. He helped out with all of the above. End of the weekend and waiting for bearings etc. Whilst I was at work, he continued cleaning etc. He also put the two bronze bushes in - save some time later.

Today was a nice day, the bearings had arrived so I set to work to put them in. Discovered that my friend has put the old bushes which came out of the drivers side hub into the passenger side one! Aggh!

He missed the bag with the new bushes and pins in it and had assumed that the pair of bushes that were loose with the rest of the bits were the new ones and put them in. So, I have spent my day doing the same task as the top paragraph of this post states.... The bush remove failed again. Out came the hacksaw. Long time later, top bush removed, bottom bush removed and the new bushes installed. Also managed to put two of the bearings that are held in place with circlips in.

Spent more time busy cleaning the Rzeppa joint - this one has probably had it - it seems to lock when you try to move it at the extremes of its movements. I shall have another go with clear petrol and see if I can wash out what ever grit is still in there. I really don't want to have to buy a new one!

Below is a picture showing the method I used to remove the bottom swivel pin bush.

removing bottom bush.jpg (121.16 KiB) Viewed 7083 times

More to come as haven't finished yet.

John

[AustHaflinger]

Seeing your pic it motivated me to pull the swivel pin bushes out of the hub. The one on the pic came out OK using as system like you did. The blind one was more problematic as I don't have a blind puller so i got the Dremel out and with a little metal grinding bit put four slots down the bush and in the top hat section of it. Then tapping it at one of the cuts broke the section away and folded the wall of the bearing inward. From there the rest of the bearing pulled out - not pretty but it worked.

As a result of the hassles with this hub I have decided not to do the other one - it does not leak and the swivel pins while have a bit of movement may still pass roadworthy. So I will let the MOT inspector determine if it is OK - if not then I will have to do it.

Cheers

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Those were my thoughts originally, but the MOT man said there was play in both front hub swivel pins that he didn't like so I had to do both. As it turns out, the drivers side (offside) also started leaking oil on the return journey so I thought I would replace the oil seals as well. Then thought as I was going to have to take the other side off to do the swivel pins that I would replace the oil seals on that as well as they couldn't be far behind offside one. So bought the kit to do both.

When I started taking things apart, the horrors that appeared resulted in more major replacement that I had originally thought.

It is now at the point where I have had to change ALL the bearings in the near side hub as they were all showing signs of damage to the surface hardening, either through rust or grit. Also the Rzeppa joint on the nearside might have to be replaced as it "feels" gritty after the first wash with petrol. Planning another wash to see if it is just grit and not damage! I really don't want to have to buy a replacement - expensive!

I too, had to cut the top swivel pin bush walls to remove that bush. The first side, my newly purchased blind bush puller removed with out trouble. The second it would not go down beyond the bush so all it did was push the bush wall harder in to the casting!

John

[AustHaflinger]

Thankfully all the internals on my drivers side hub were OK so just replacing the oil seals. The CV seems OK so will not do the passenger side - if it subsequently plays up then Ok - learnt how to do it on the drivers side.

So when is all yours going back together and looking for MOT again?

[heinkeljb]

Passenger side (near side) hub is still in pieces as we have had Shite weather the last few weekends and that is the only time I get to be able to do anything of this sort to the Haflinger. So present state is that the swivel pin bushes are in, the top Rzeppa shaft needle roller bearing is in, the outer race for the hub flange is in. I now need to dry assemble the two bits with out the top small cog so I can work out the wheel hub flange bearing play as per the manual. Then the existing Rzeppa joint needs another wash to see if I will have to replace it.

This near side hub was far worse than the offside hub, so has required more work to get back together.

Once the hub is back on again, I have to sort out the brakes. Not just because they will need fluid, the MOT man said they weren't efficient enough. So will need to work out why and what I can do to make them more efficient.
Then the windscreen wiper will need attention - it stopped working for some reason and it does seem to be a fuse.

After that is can go for another MOT...... Watch this space as the saying goes!

John

[AustHaflinger]

I now need to dry assemble the two bits with out the top small cog so I can work out the wheel hub flange bearing play as per the manual.
John

Are you talking about the wheel bearing section in reassembly of the front hub - section 4-4 of the manual?

Cheers

Garry