Drivetrain Rattle in Neutral.

[AustHaflinger]

I have mentioned this previously but cannot find the post - so a new thread.

Diagnosis Required.

Gearbox in neutral - engine running - clutch pedal out = rattly noise from gearbox/clutch area.

Gearbox in neutral - engine running - clutch pedal pushed down = nothing unusual - no rattly noise.

General driving around - no issues, no rattly noises.

When stopped in gear at lights with clutch pushed down - no noise but if in neutral with feet off the pedals then there is a rattle - almost a knocking in the drive train coming from the clutch/front gearbox.

Is this rattly noise symptomatic of a spigot bush or clutch release bearing failing or even the input shaft bearing on the gearbox?

Thanks

Garry

[HaffyHunter]

Hi Garry,
The noise is from the clutch release bearing. Your clutch cable is adjusted a bit too tight which is causing the bearing to remain in contact with the fiber ring on the pressure plate when the pedal is released. Loosen the cable adjustment a little. The adjustment shaft is located inside the steering box support casting. You should have approximately 0.25" of freeplay at the clutch actuating lever which is located at the top left side of the gearbox bell housing.
Cheers,
Steve

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks Steve - my clutch cable is "out" as far as it will go. By that I mean where the actual cable screws onto the adjuster (on the side of the steering box) the thread on the shaft is at its maximum - that is the overall length of the clutch cable is at its maximum - that is clear as mud and it is well after midnight so to dark for me to take a pic.

If it is relevant my clutch takes up at the top of the pedal not any where near the floor.

Cheers

Garry

[HaffyHunter]

Hi Garry,
If your clutch cable is the correct part for your truck and you are still getting release bearing noise at the adjustment you've stated then something has likely gone wrong with the release bearing retainer clips or the clutch fork is not properly located on the actuator shaft's spline. With your cable adjusted to maximum length (assuming the correct cable) you should have quite a bit of freeplay at the actuator arm. If not then it's time to go inside before the release bearing does catastrophic damage to the gearbox housing, flywheel or engine case.
Steve

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks Steve - I suspect I have done something wrong - the Haffie did not make this noise when I got it in October but I did pull the whole steering box,pedal assembly out to do some welding under it and when I put it all together the issue started. I need to investigate - I will try winding it in a bit just to see what happens.

Is on the job list for tomorrow.

Thanks - I appreciate your help.

Cheers

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

Steve and others

When I recently had my engine out I replaced the spigot bush and put in a new clutch withdrawal bearing and the rattle is still there. Taking Steve's comments about the clutch cable being too tight I had a closer look at this. The clutch itself works fine and has good feel in the pedal but the clutch cable is out as far as it can go and is now only connected to the clutch pedal with a few threads so I am not sure what is going on here - it cannot be let out any further - is there such a thing as a wrong cable.

When looking at my Landrover forums a person had exactly the same symptom with their Discovery. When in neutral and foot off the clutch there is a rattle and when the clutch pedal is pushed the rattle goes away just like my Haflinger - except there is no issue in the Haflinger when everything is cold - so no rattle on start.

With the Landrover R380 gearbox the issue is caused by a failing layshaft bearing in the gearbox.

So any thoughts on the issue of a gearbox issue rather than a tight clutch cable. I am going to disconnect the cable from the clutch end to see if it is a tight cable.

Thanks

Garry

[heinkeljb]

Hi Gary,

I was just about to say, "have you tried disconnecting the clutch cable" and then moving the lever by hand (you will probably need to have some sort of lever extension as the amount of leverage you get from the clutch pedal to the lever is likely to be quite high.)

The way the clutch cable is routed and the fact that you only put an inner cable means it is quite possible that the cable is the wrong length by a couple of mm. As you know, cable like these rely on the distance between the stop on the inner cable and the sleeve of the outer cable for the working length, the overall length has little to do with its ability to work correctly as long as it reaches the places it needs to connect to.

I don't actually know the dimensions of the Haflinger cable, but it should be possible to go to a "proper" motorbike shop and get inner cable, outer cable, adjusters, nipple etc so you can make your own cable up.

John

[HaffyHunter]

- is there such a thing as a wrong cable.

Hi Garry,

If your cable was supplied by one of the Haflinger parts dealers it would not be too short unless you have a 703 (LWB) Haffy. On the other hand, if your cable was made up or repaired by a local shop then it could easily be too short. Another possibility is that the clutch withdrawal bearing's fork is not properly aligned on the spline of the actuator lever shaft. This can result in insufficient clearance between the withdrawal bearing and the pressure plate ring and the lever where the cable attaches being too far aft. There should be at least 1/4" clearance between the back of the lever arm and the gearbox bell housing with everything at rest and the clutch cable disconnected. I recommend you try John's suggestion of disconnecting the cable and running the engine to see if the noise persists. Check the clearance I mentioned at this time too. If this all checks out then you may need to verify the cable length. Dale at Haflinger Technik can give you a proper length.

If all this gives no conclusion then it is quite possible that you have a failing layshaft bearing but hopefully not as that is much more work. If you suspect this is the case then try adding some oil supplement to the gearbox. There are several products available like Molyslip, Lucas Oils and Slick 50 that might help things quiet down.

Cheers,
Steve

[Goatwerks]

My bet is bearings on the trans input side are worn. When cold, oil is thicker= less noise, as oil warms and thins noise gets louder.
Next step is to see if most noise goes away or diminishes in final gear, if so it is internal.
Final drive gear has least load on opposing shafts/bearings.
Do not despair, the gearbox can be repaired without disturbing the diff section. Gut package comes out fairly easy after removing gearbox drain plug and crawler set if equipped(to access hidden plate retaining nuts).
If you are just doing bearings and have no jig, you can mark the fork positions on the shift shafts with a hacksaw blade.
Have a look at my trans pictures on photobucket link below.

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks John, Steve and Jim.

Comments sort of confirm what I was thinking.

Thinking back I should have pulled the gearbox out while I had the engine out. I am confident enough to pull the gearbox out not so much pulling it apart to replace bearings. Is not such an urgent issue at the moment and I will have to try someone locally who can do the work but I am not so sure many people have haflinger experience. I will go through Jims links to see what needs doing.

Does anyone from Aust know anyone in the Sydney area (or even Melbourne) who is able to rebuild Haflinger gearboxes?

oh - is the Haflinger 5 speed gearbox actually based on another vehicle gearbox or is it totally unique?

Cheers

Garry

[ogdenenterprise]

Hi Garry.
Tony Hrleja from Melbourne ,rebuilds gearboxes.not sure on costs and how long it will take. I'm sure you are mechanically minded ,if I can rebuild one I'm sure you can if you need any info PM me. I have just put mine back together and it now works ok.

Dave

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks Dave - other projects at the moment include rebuild the front diff and CVs, finish rebuilding a Rover 4.6 V8 and install in one of of my vehicles, restore my e-type. So while the Haffie gearbox remains serviceable in normal use this aspect will have to wait a while.

If there was someone local who could do the work I would farm it out but as there is not it will have to wait. At least I know what to look for if it starts to get worse.

Cheers

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

I still have this issue and not until it really becomes a major problem I will leave it (doing major rebuild of the front end at the moment).

To minimise the noise (only there when in neutral and foot off the clutch) I would like to use the heaviest grade oil I can in the gearbox and maybe a noise reducing additive.

So what is the heaviest grade of gear oil I can safely use in the gearbox in temps ranging from 0°c to about 35°c outside air temp.

Also is there a safe oil additive that can be added to the above gear oil?

Garry

[Goatwerks]

You may get gear clash with thicker oils as worn syncro rings do not grab well.
Just keep it full of the 90 wt, when the noise worries you, it is time for repairs.
On a good note, most of the time it is just the small roller bearings on the input shaft and crawler gears

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks for that information - when the time comes I will do the entire gearbox as I hate working on these things and I might as well get all the bearings and synchros done when the box is apart.

Just as a matter of interest is the crawler gear in the earlier four speed box plus crawler the same as the much later first gear in the five speed box - I assume both boxes are exactly the same - just marketed differently.

Cheers

Garry

[Goatwerks]

Early krawler was not solid spline, it was "clutched" for overload protection.
Most were updated if opened for repairs, you can find the TSB on Haflingertecknic.

[pathfinder700ap]

Here is some info on my website:

http://tdc.haflinger-4wd.com/details_an ... mation.php

[Tennmogger]

Is it possible the rattle is nothing more than gears being rattled by varying angular velocity from the engine at idle? What happens when you increase idle, or reduce rpm?

404 Unimogs are notorious for this rattle, and they have a smooth 6 cylinder engine. Maybe there is nothing broken.

Bob

[AustHaflinger]

Thanks for all of the above information - can't check as the car is up on jacks with no oil in the gearbox - I will check once it is back on its wheels.

Cheers

Garry

[AustHaflinger]

Sorry forgot about this - as mentioned - no rattle when oil is cold - decent rattle when oil is hot.

No rattle when driving. No rattle when when in neutral and clutch depressed. Decent rattle when in neutral and clutch released, rattle frequency increases with increased revs but its intensity does not increase. There is no swarf in the gearbox oil.

As discussed I think it is a bearing on the input shaft - as there is no material in the oil and the oil needs to be thin (heated) for the noise to be heard I assume the bearing is not disintegrating and there is most likely a small imperfection in a ball or race that is causing the noise.

Now as just covered in my engine low compression thread, my engine is out of the car so do I proceed further and also pull the gearbox (with all the hassles that brings) and get it fixed - or do I risk it and just leave it until the gearbox becomes noisy all the time or fails.

If I do get the work done - can any Aussies recommend someone on the east coast who could do this work.

Thanks

Garry