Rust Repairs - Poor design

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AustHaflinger
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Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

The longer I have owned my Haffie the real condition is starting to become clear. I cut out some rust in the platform outer rail yesterday and noticed that its height reduces by about 3mm just behind the cab - so it looks like the platform was rusted out and new piece was added in but they got the size a little wrong - not really noticeable but is there (towards the rear of where the spare wheel mount is). Also I now realise that the the sides of the rear tray are home made - well made and strong but not original.

Image

Inside the cabin the floor is rusted above the support panel that runs under the floor and under the seat. This is a really poor design as it allows moisture and dirt in but not to get out. It was full of flakey rust and dirt and the metal is a bit thinner as a result. I have cut the rust out and will need to weld in new metal into the support panel and then weld in new metal in the floor. I will paint the internal panels POR 15 and I am going to put a hole in the top and one in the bottom filled with a blanking grommet so that I can fill the lot with cavity wax and later pull the grommet out at the bottom to wash out the dirt and let it dry out.

Elsewhere I have the usual rust under the steering. The thicker outer panel is still there with some pitting but the inner panel is gone having been cut out at some stage. Again why build a vehicle that has two steel panels sandwiched together where rust thrives. I am going to do the same as under the seat - weld in a new panel on the inside and have grommeted holes top and bottom so that when it is together I can pour in cavity wax etc in at the top to fill the cavity up so that it cannot rust.

I am doing this while I wait for hub parts and shock absorbers to arrive from overseas.

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
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heinkeljb
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by heinkeljb »

Just be thankful that you do not live in a part of the world where rust is a real problem! There are always parts of a vehicle which are rust prone and those are in particular places where the metal is double skinned.

Looking at the parts book, the rail actually has a joint just behind the cab so that is probably where it went.

If you are going to "go to town" on the rust bug, remember that there are "open" rails under the platform which provide strength but which won't have been 100% sealed. Just take a look at some of the restoration photos on the Yahoo groups - i can see more holes being cut and filled with rubber grommets!

John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !

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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

I know what you mean about rust in the UK - I lived there for a year in 1983 and drove around in a rusty Renault that went to the breaker when I left. I also bought a Jag to bring back with me and it had a bit of rust in it - indeed I still own it and it still has the same rust in it - it stopped rusting when I got to Aust.

My Haffie comes from Tasmania which has a climate something like the UK so the ground is wet and throws up a lot of mud where where I live it is dust except in winter where it is muddy snow. My Haffie has all the signs of mud being thrown up underneath and staying there in a damp climate - also water being left in the drivers footwell.

I am not looking for rust to fix but I do want the current holes fixed noting of course a small hole is really a big hole. I am used to designed in rust breeding area in my Jag and Landies but was not expecting it so much in the Haffie. I would have expected drain holes in a few of those hidden areas.

I wasn't going to worry about doing them but I can get this done while waiting for hub parts from Scotland.

Oh it wasn't my hub that was leaking oil as there is no evidence of a leak anywhere but there is a lot of oil. I think it is diff oil that has moved down the swing arm and out just inboard of the CV joint - as mention in another post there was a deep groove in the CV shaft and the oil seal was a bit dodgy (they are 25 pounds each) - low oil in the diff is probably why the front end was getting growlie (posted on Yahoo site) - thankfully not driven enough to cause damage (I hope).

Maybe I have this Haffie to drive and later get another one to restore.

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Hi Garry,

I have the same problem with the additional panel under the steering assembly. I drilled out the spot welds and removed the panel. My plan is to repair the panel and paint it with a zinc primer, then weld it back onto the front footwell (which should also be primed in advance).
platform04.jpg
platform04.jpg (137.25 KiB) Viewed 2946 times
The u-shaped members under the front seats are typical rust spots on Haflingers. You should also investigate the same type of members which you find in the rear section of the body, on both sides of the engine compartment.

Do you have pictures of where you think that the side rails have been partly replaced?


Regards,
Constantin
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heinkeljb
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by heinkeljb »

I am glad you have decided where the oil leak was - at least you can try curing it now. I agree it is a very strange oil seal which is why it is so expensive.

I decided that I did not want to have to take the hubs apart again in the near future because I only replaced the "One" seal that was actually leaking before I took them apart.

So far I have only "had" to replace a small area of rust on the platform near the drivers side rear and a bit in the passenger footwell. The rest I am just treating to convert to Potassium Oxide which I can paint over properly.

John
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !

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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

Here is a pic where the side rails join - it on the drivers side and you can see the difference in profile. It goes all the way to the rear corner where the original profile continues across the rear. The passenger side has the original profile.

Image

The start of rust repairs under the drivers seat.
Image

Where the metal is missing under the steering
Image

The heavy plate that is still in place is a bit pitted but still strong - I will hit it with some rust converter and POR 15 and then weld in a new floor section. I will then fill the cavity with penetrol and then cavity wax.

I did a quick check of the rear bracing panels and they all seem OK - I will drill drain holes in them and blow out any crud in there and fill up with penatrol and cavity wax.

Cheers

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
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Rick K
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by Rick K »

Hello Gary

I wonder if the designers/engineers ever contemplated enthusiasts some 40 to 50 years later endeavoring to keep the vehicles in good order. 10 years military service may all that they were aiming for.

You seem to have had rust in all the usual places. The tin shield protecting the accelerator pedal rod (that your heels would rest against) seems to have been removed, which is probably a good thing. This seems to encourage rust as well, retaining crud and moisture. The side rails seem to be made well, considering they are not original. I've got some should you ever need templates to have the remade.

I think POR 15 is great stuff, and I painted all parts with it for my AU army haffy restoration after chemically stripping. The self-leveling properties mean you can use a brush but still get the sprayed look. I also use Lanotec liquid lanolin to flood channels ( using a 50mL syringe), and also aerosol cans to get into difficult areas. It's non-viscous, and has excellent penetrating properties, but once the solvent evaporates, it leaves a greasy/waxy layer that seals against moisture and oxygen. I also use lanolin grease on bolts on blind nuts,to avoid corrosion down the track.

Hope you don't uncover any more rust.

Regards

Rick
1963 Haflinger 700APTL (ex- Hydro Tasmania)
several Puch scooters[/size]
pathfinder700ap
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Garry,

I think you are correct regarding the side rail. I also think that it has been partly replaced. Except for the slightly different corner radius, does the profile look the same?

Regarding the rust under the steering assembly, it might be worth removing the steering assembly before you start repairing. This would include removing the clutch cable, speedo cable and brake line. Also, one problem might be the steering linkage. You would have to remove the drop arm on the outer side of the front footwell to be able to remove the whole steering assembly. The connection between shaft and drop arm is made by a tapered serration and it is hard to separate the parts. Best thing would be to soak the connection with WD40 or similar for some days and then work with a heavy-duty pull-off tool.

Also, you could think about removing the outer additional panel like shown in my picture. I used an 8 mm welding spot driller. Took me some hours, but I think it was worth it.

Regards,
Constantin
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heinkeljb
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by heinkeljb »

I think you should count yourself lucky! The Haflinger does not have very much body work so proportionally less to rust and to have to fix!

Also most of the panels are easy to get at to weld and if it turns out you can't get to a particular bit - not the end of the world to take the body right off, turn it upside down and do the welding. NOT that I would like to have to do that in this weather... Still I am sure there are part on the Jag and the Land Rovers that would require things like engine out, cut through a double skin panel to weld up a third panel, then have to weld the double skin panel back in place etc.

If the weather allows I might get my hubs back on in the next couple of weeks.
Haflinger 703AP LWB 1973 - (Once owned by Lady Sutherland & Sons.) Now called "Lurch" !

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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks for all the comments.

Rick - I didn't realise the rod that is connected to the accelerator had a cover over it - certainly the bit is quite robust and I guess not really needed. I will file that point away to have a look at later. As far as the side rail goes I did not even notice it until I was welding up the rust holes in the side rails under the drivers door - so done pretty well.

Lanolin is a great product. The Brit Waxoil is also pretty good but it runs out of the car in the Aussie sun. When I lived in the UK I waxoiled my Jag and seemed to work great but when I brought back home it all ran out on the first 40 degree day.

Constantin - yes I am going to remove the steering - ideally I should remove the heavy the heavy plate as well but I want to get this car on the road and as it seems strong enough as is I will leave it with suitable rust protection. It will be stronger with an new inner panel welded in.

John - yes the Haffie is really no worse than most other cars - I need to take the sills off my jag to get some inner bracing supports replaced and to stop the body getting bent all out of shape I have to build and weld in an inner brace to keep the tub together when the sills are off - so compared with the Jag the Haffie is easy peasy.

My main beef is that this car is not quite turning out to be the 'great condition' vehicle it was reported to be but then when you are not is a position to view the vehicle before purchasing this is the risk you take. Thankfully though nothing too bad that a bit of money and work cannot fix.

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Here's a picture of what a new and original RHD front footwell would look like...
DSCF0016.JPG
DSCF0016.JPG (313.46 KiB) Viewed 2462 times
Regards,
Constantin
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks for that - we need a thanks button :)
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woodman
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by woodman »

Hi Garry, My brother and I have owned Haflingers for many years and we have both come to the same conclusion that when the idea of the Haflinger was first thought of by the engineers at Graz they were more concerned with the engineering side of the vehicle and the platform was just some where to park your bum on, we bought a brand new Haf in the 70s and after owning it for only one year the bodywork started to rust !!, we then traded it in for another new Haf only this time repainted and wax oiled the vehicle before putting it onto the road so don't be suprised that Haffies rust, you are doing a great job of repairing your Haf keep up the the good work. :)
Regards woodman
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

I have now welded in new metal to the area under and in front of the seat. I did find a couple of small holes that had been welded up previously. I just need to do some more filling and sanding fill some of the scratch marks.

Image

I have two holes drilled in the underlying reinforcing assembly that will have blanking grommits put in them. I have a couple of litres of Penatrol that I will fill the panel up with and leave for a day then drain out. This will creep into the overlapping metal areas sealing and killing any rust and generally sealing the inner surfaces. When it all drys I will then fiull with cavity wax and on the outside paint the metal joins with seam sealer.

I now need to do the area under the steering box.

On the cab area - I need to replace the rubber on the front diff lock lever but do not know how to get the metal collar off - see this pic
Image

So any tips on moving that metal collar would be helpful - looks as if it should turn but mine does not.

Cheers

Garry
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ogdenenterprise
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by ogdenenterprise »

Hi Garry. the metal collar has 3 little buttons ,1 on each side,press these in then the collar will prise up.
regards dave
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks Dave - I would never have picked them as buttons.

I will go out now and try them.

Thanks

Garry
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

Well got the old rubber out - lost one of the little buttons down the hole but thankfully the gods smiled and I was able to find it amongst the rubbish underneath.

All went together with a new rubber OK but there still seems to be some issues with the linkage with the diff lock not staying locked but that is something to look at when I put the hubs back in at a later date.

Thanks for the pointer.

Cheers

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

I have done all I am going to do as far as rust rectification goes - fixed up the panel work under and just in front of the drivers sear Ok but the bottom of the floor is more problematic. It has clearly been rusted out before with a mix of processes used to cover up the problem. I was able to weld in new metal with my Mig (until I ran out of gas) an small inverter welder but had problems with the poor state of the metal - rusty but thick enough to be structural but dirty enough to cause problems welding. Also there had been brazing done and body filler used which played havoc with the welding process.

Really the whole lot needs to be cut out and new metal put in. Thankfully I live in a relatively dry climate so if I carefully clean after each 'dirty trip' the repair should last a few years. I have drilled a couple of access holes so I can get into the space between the floor and the outer thick reinforcing plate so will fill with anti rust treatments and POR 15. I will paint the lower inner floor with Por 15 and when dry overcoat with body paint.

When ordering some other parts from Haflinger Technik in Scotland I saw that they had complete front floor/side sections and I asked if they also do repair panels for the area around the steering and the thicker outer panel but they said they did not. So can anyone tell me if any supplier does do repair panels for the rust prone sections of the Haffie.

Once I have fixed this I will be able to finish the rest of the mechanical bits needed for registration. These are reassemble RH hub and install with new swivel pins, remove and reinstall LH hub with new swivel pins, fix the front diff lock mechanism, new shockies all round, new muffler and fix a couple of minor electrical issues and that should be it. - Not a lot really.

Cheers

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
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pathfinder700ap
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by pathfinder700ap »

Hi,

the reproduction panels come from Austria, see for example:
http://www.puch-haflinger.at/index.php? ... &Itemid=70

However if you have a close look at the panels, you will see a difference compared to the original. Especially the parts which would require complex press tools, such as the front footwell and the engine compartment panels, have been a bit simplified.

Do you have some pictures of the repairs on the front footwell?

Kind regards,
Constantin
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AustHaflinger
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Re: Rust Repairs - Poor design

Post by AustHaflinger »

Thanks - not sure what specifically I am looking at on that link though as I am having difficulty other than looking at various body panels.

I haven't finished the work as yet so will put something up when I finish. As I said it really need the lot cut out rather than patched up but I want the vehicle back on the road.

Cheers

Garry
Haflinger 700AP (73)
Range Rover Sport TDV6 (07)
Landrover FC 101 (77)
Landrover Series 1 SWB Station Wagon (57)
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